Liberation is a process of healing from trauma and trauma-related emotions, which can lead to physical, mental, and emotional health. Liberation is not just about moving through the past or learning new skills, it's also about taking responsibility for your actions and choices.
In this episode, Dr. Norissa and Dr. Bukky, the podcast hosts, share some powerful insights on how radical remembering conversion changed Dr. Bukky, consumption of information in time, prioritizing liberation, how radical remembering conversion changed Dr. Norissa, how Dr. Norissa influences people towards self reclamation and how it’s like to take a step toward liberation journey.
Timestamps
[02:10] How Radical Remembering conversation changed Dr. Bukky
[12:56] Consumption of information in time
[17:03] Prioritizing liberation
[19:53] How Radical Remembering conversation changed Dr. Norissa
[26:29] How Dr. Norissa influences people towards self reclamation
[27:51] How it’s like to take a step toward liberation journey
Notable Quotes
(15:24) “We have so many thoughts that go in and out of our heads and we need to anchor them on paper.”
(17:36) “We should step away from white supremacy by prioritizing ourselves in a way that we have never prioritized ourselves before.”
(20:28) “The kingdom of God is about telling one beggar where you found a piece of bread.”
(22:00) “Ritual is a mechanism of liberation.”
(22:46) “White supremacy has forced an isolation in us.”
(27:00) “Ancestral practices is not the only way in liberation, it’s just one way.”
(28:28) “We should be able to listen and trust ourselves.”
(31:21) “We don’t necessarily have a model or a whole lot of models for what this journey of deGEMMification/liberation is like.”
Relevant Links
Radical Remembering Podcast
Website: https://radicalremembering.com/
Connect with Dr. Norissa
Connect with Dr. Bukky
Radical Remembering is a podcast that covers personal growth, self-awareness and awareness of topics at the intersection of mental health, spirituality and self-help. Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey into living out your purpose. Stay tuned for the next episode. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Listen to our next podcast and tell a friend about us.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:01
Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:04
Dr. Norissa
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:05
And Dr. Bukky
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:06
This is a weekly conversation where we explore the ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to be liberated.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:12
Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. What's up you all welcome back to Radical Remembering. This is our final episode for this season, which we are calling our culminating session
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:38
Works for me.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:41
So part of what we are certainly interested in doing is talking a little bit with each other and with you all about what's changed for us since we started. I would really love to hear from you all, and hear your stories too about what’s changed for you as you’re following us and listening to the season. So make sure you hit us up on our handle. Norissa let me pass it to you so you can give people the proper information on how to hit us up
Dr. Norissa Williams: 01:11
On any of the platforms, on the website, radicalremembering.com or the Official Dr. Bukky, or me at Dr. Norissa Williams on Instagram, where we post about the podcast. So just looking forward to hearing what's changed for you.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 01:30
All right. So let's kick off this episode, you want to start or Norissa should I start with you?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 01:36
I'm interested in hearing your journey, because we were at different starting points. And the interesting thing is that you perceive me as having been, because you mentioned it in the last episode, I think you think that I'm further along on this journey than I am. Literally it's been, we're coming in on the close of a year in this journey for me, so it hasn't even been a year. But this is just how much happens when you step in and when you enter into that space. But I'm curious to hear, what have these conversations been like for you?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 02:10
I mean, I can't remember if we had started this, we hadn't started recording when I made the choice, a decision inside of me that wanted to start to engage in ancestral practice. Had we started recording yet?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 02:30
I don't think so, I think that it was just starting to bubble
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 02:35
Maybe we had the conversation that we would do the show, but then we had to start recording. And then I had this experience. And I was like, Oh my god. So I mean, the fact that I had my first reading is huge. The version of myself that was in grad school is like, you did what? So, that's really cool. I think this piece around just being able to listen to people like yourself, to listen Cynthia, to listen to Simone, to hear my uncle’s stories. Like all of it. I mean, I think all of it has, I think the word is like deeper from for me, the value of this conversation, the value of this construct of radically remembering, I think that I keep feeling this openness and longing to engage even deeper. And this is why I think whenever we have these guests, and I think even with you Norissa, I'm constantly asking from a concrete perspective, exactly, how do you start to lean more in? I went on vacation. And before I went on vacation, I was telling you about my interest in doing a ritual. And you told me about this ritual to do, which I did. I took an apple and I gave an offering in the water. And so it's just one of those things. I really loved this conversation we had last episode with Simone, because I used to identify as Christian, and I was a very strong Christian. So in some ways, the practice of sending prayers up and talking to someone I don't see, or to energy, I felt very at home when I was in conversation. And this is what I loved about that thing you were saying too in the last episode of being able to discern your own voice versus the voices of spirits. And so that part I'm not 100%, I think when Simone was saying this piece around paying attention, listening, I didn't tell you this the other day Norissa, is, first of all, I got my car detailed, I haven't ever got a car detailed, I've never understood why people need to get car details. Just like what? I don't know if the audience knows, I have two children. And I'm not a car person. And I'm somebody who has a high capacity to tolerate mess. But since we bought this car in 2021, I think we washed it only one time. And inside of it was just crumbs everywhere, just junk and garbage everywhere. And it was one of those things where it's the idea of cleaning it just overwhelms me. And you know when you go to the carwash, they do a haphazard job. And I don’t want a haphazard job. Anyway, I went to this place. By the way, if anybody in New Jersey, Just Mac auto detailing, the one who owns it, he is amazing. So Norissa, literally, I went, I spent my money on this. And I was like, Oh, now I understand why people get their car detailed. Like you get your car and you're like, This car looks like a brand new car. So, I understand that. But anyway, the piece that I was really interested in Norissa that I like have in the story is that, I haven't done anything about this yet. But I met this man, and there was something about his energy around his spirit. And his spirit felt so kind, his spirit felt so kind of the word that kept on coming up to me, but I left there and I said, I'm supposed to be in this man's life. I don't know what that means. I was like, Dana, I think I'm supposed to be in this man's life. Dana is my wife. Dana of course laughs because she just thinks I'm doing my crazy thing. But I feel this thing inside of me to text. And Norissa, you know I don’t like texting random people, but I want to text him and be like, I think I'm supposed to be in your life. But I don't know why. And it feels crazy. But my point, the reason why I'm saying this is, going back to the previous episode of what Simone was saying is about listening. And I don't know what that means. Like I said, I haven't taken any action on it, but listening to her talk last in our last shooting, I was like, Oh, I think I wonder if I need to act on this thing. Because that wasn't my own voice. That wasn't me. I don't know this man from anywhere. I think he's a nice guy, he's a sweet guy, but other than getting my car detailed, I don't have any. But there's a sense inside of me that I'm supposed to be in his life. Anyway, I think things like that, I think what's shifted in me is just continuing to feel clear around the ways. I mean, that thing that Simone was saying, also, you and her that conversation about Catholicism. And why is it that when you think about the Catholic religion, all the ways in which, we would have said, Catholics were engaged in idol practice. But all of those things, the point she was making, there's a piece around, but once it is from us, once it is sourced from black and brown folks, this piece around, that's really anti blackness. So why are Catholics okay with doing that, but then when we talk about ancestral practice, when it's really the same thing, why then is there more reactivity to that? So, I think that there is a piece around just feeling more from around just the cost of colonization in all of us, and feeling more open to claiming my own journey, and really wanting. Audience, I don't know if you all know this, but Norissa has all these different courses, she's constantly learning, and this is why I do think you're so much far ahead in terms of your study. Norissa, you're studying, you are learning, you're intentional, you're investing time. So, I do think that you are further along in this journey. If you try to say like, I'd be like get out of here, but I think that's what I'm talking about. So I also know what you mean by that comment too. So I do think that the piece that shifted in me is a continued affirmation around claiming what belongs to us and claiming our own practices and the piece that just feels almost like this piece around tuning my own ears to better hear not only myself because there's a piece around like better hearing my own self and trusting my own self, but really making space to engage with our ancestors, with spirits and to have openness to that. I do really think that those things are ways in which I am shifting that a version of me even 3 years ago would have been like, I have questions, whereas they're like, what Simone's sitting here talking, I don't have 10,000 parts of me that's trying to poke holes. There's more of an acceptance. I think that's one of the key words, there's more of an acceptance. Does that answer your question?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 10:24
Yeah. I mean, it's been beautiful to witness on the outside to see. Because the question, I mean, I don't know that you have all the answers that you wanted, or needed or hungry or curious for, but I think that that's a good place to urge you and to continue to motivate you to reach for the answers. But to be on the outside looking in, I feel honored to get to witness your journey firsthand and see how things are changing. And so I wonder, I would love to see where you are a year from now. Also, I want to say that the way you said study just now, I've never heard you say anything Nigerian the way you pronounced it. And the other thing that I was thinking, when I say like so far ahead, I'm not 10 years in. Because it could be intimidating to other people thinking, well, she's been in this for years. Even Simone like, this is like 20 years deep for you. It could be thinking like, Oh, God, it's so far off. So, I think it's so meaningful to say, well, a year ago, probably even less, 11 months, 10 months ago, maybe like 11 months ago, I would have been the same, okay, so how do you differentiate? How do I know that that's them talking to me? How do I know? And actually, one of the first times when I felt like I heard an ancestor talking to me was October, October 13. Actually, my grandparents had the same birthday, but my grandfather is deceased. And it wasn't a talk, what it was, is that I felt him hug me. I was saying Happy birthday, and my morning meditations or whatever to him. And I could feel him, I could feel like a prickly hug. And he used to hug us every night, and they raised us so I grew up in the house with them. And so every night before he left for work, he worked overnight, he would give us a hug and I would feel the prickliness of his beard. And I saw his face, I had seen his face like a close up image. And that was like my first communication. So it's only been a handful of months, and I feel it might be encouraging to hear 10, 11 months from now, you might be like, yeah, when I was talking to grandma, she said, So yeah, I do feel like I also do draw from my own spirituality practices before I began ancestral veneration. So I will be clear and honest about that one as well. But I don't think that you're far behind.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 12:55
Yeah, well but I think this is the piece that I think maybe you, I'm going to use that word again, the geek. But I think there's something about practicing, but there's something about studying. Yeah. So that piece that you do. Like I said, I'm very new to this journey. And we already talked about this, my way is usually just more from a living practice. But there's something about somebody who takes the time to really study study what you're learning to understand. To have a conversation with you, Norissa about this, even though for you, it's like, this has been a year, I imagine you talk about this as somebody who's had multi years, because of the fact that you're deep in learning and taking information. So, that's the part I'm really honoring is just your consumption of information and your integration of that information into your practices. My point somebody who from a real time perspective has been practicing however long, there is an extra thing that you are doing that boosts you. So, I'm really trying to honor and really affirm in naming it that way.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 14:31
I feel like you give us two keys, you named two keys for us. Consumption and integration. Because they're two separate things. First of all, you could have person A and person B, and what I put in a year, and someone else not having put in anything. I mean, that was probably me even earlier in life. And so there are two different outcomes or endpoints based on what you're saying, but those have been the keys. This hunger of wanting to know and having taken courses, having read books, having built alter, engage, having sought readers, diviners when I need more guidance and more confirmation, and really just doing those things. So that consumption, like you said, and then the integration, because that part is so important too. And for me, that's when I use my journaling. Because we have so many thoughts that go in and out of our heads. And so, if we don't anchor them, and I anchor them by writing them on the paper and go back to them. Going back to them is what also helps me integrate. And I go back to notes. And Simone had said one time, you really practiced, she heard another interview that I did, you really study. And I was like, Yes, how do I do. I don't play. I go back to my notes, and I look at it.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 15:54
Norissa, as you were just speaking, it's like, no, it's one thing to remember, it's one thing to be in the process of remembering, but there's this thing about the radical remembering. And I think the way you engage this work, you are the embodiment of that. I think that piece around the radical part, not just being radical in what we're doing and all that, but it's like, the way in which you're learning, the way that you're bringing in all of those things, I really think when we think. And to your point, I really appreciate what you're saying, is saying, all of our journeys don’t have to look like Norissa’s journey. And there's ways that Norissa’s built, that invites you or brings you to the way you do it. But to me, I feel like you are my model of what it looks like to be radically remembering. It's like you are hungry for it, you are seeking it out, you are engaging. That's just an affirmation that you certainly offer. I feel like I'm trying to remember, radically remembering.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 17:04
I love it, you know what it also brings? That brings me also back to liberation. So, I've also made this space to do it. So I would not have had this space 5 years ago. And when I say I've made this space, I made a choice from a place of liberation of stepping away from capitalism. Well, I haven't completely stepped away from capitalism. I'm a business owner, and I still do stuff and I charge and different things like that. But the ways in which white supremacy and patriarchy have said, you have to be busy doing this, this, this, this and this. And I've stepped away from that, by prioritizing me in a way that I've never prioritized myself before, actually, in a way that I haven't prioritized myself since I was a teenager. And it's so hard to do as a parent, it's so hard to do as a spouse, it’s so hard to prioritize any of those things. But if it wasn't for my taking that radical step of leaving a full time position that looks amazing on paper, if it wasn't for that, and my saying, I don't want to be complicit in my own oppression. And so that's why I left the job, she's not going to be complicit in her own oppression. But also, if I'm moving away from, what am I moving to? And so it's been my wanting to move too. But also, even before I did begin this practice, because I have had practices of meditation, and it was just more sparse and more random, where I heard spirit before. In 2020, they told me, their words were, you're going to university. And I was like, What the hell does that mean? I got more clarity as the year came that there is going to be 2 years of learning, 2 years of intense learning. And as time went on, they told me what I would be learning about. And so it's become more clear since my ancestral practice and since I'm more deliberate and intentional about how I use that space and that time. And because I have a friend who says, they give you crumbs on a trail. It's so deep, this is why it's fun for me because it's fun, but it's also like, this is so wild. This is an adventure, but it keeps me engaged too, because my ancestors’ spirits never cease to amaze me in what's next for me. Like what's going to happen? And so, yeah, you get a little bit more you eat a little bit more. So, yeah.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 19:39
Norissa, tell the audience for you, since we started this, 9, 10 episodes ago, what's changed for you? Or how have you been changed through this?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 19:54
How have I been changed? So it's interesting because I want to say that there's nothing specific. One amazing change, it has been like even witnessing someone else's journey. So, witnessing your journey, and then other people in my life who are now like, Well, how do I do that? And how do I do that? And how do I move from this to that? And being able to turn in my Christian days in my teen teenage years, when I used to listen to lots of preachers, I remember TD Jakes said, The kingdom of God is about telling one beggar where you found a piece of bread. And so, I always hold to that, and I hold to that in my work as a counsellor as a teacher as a whatever. And it's also a very humble thought. And so, the meal is not cooked yet, I can't give you full cooked meal right now, because I don't got it. But what I can give you is a piece of bread. So my piece of bread is like, well, this is what I've been doing. Let me share this with you. And so that's also really gratifying to be able to, I don't have the full picture yet. I don't. I'm on my journey. And so, to be able to share crumbs of bread to be able to witness and hold other people as they seek to, sorry, I have 50 thoughts at one time, like always. So another thought that I want to say is that I didn't know that we walked into this having the intention that the majority of the podcast this season would be about ancestral practices, but it has been. And I appreciate the fact that we've been sensitive to that, leading into that, guiding, because it's a way of liberation, not the only way of liberation, but an important path of liberation for at least me in this part of my life. And so now I'm like, Wait, what was I saying? But point of the story is what's different for me now is that I'm taking a deeper dive, ritual is super important to me now. And so I'm learning rituals and being more intentional about practicing rituals. And I had a little aha moment when we were speaking to Simone last episode, that ritual is a mechanism of liberation, a mechanism of going back to the land, of going back to your culture. And so it's a mechanism of decolonization, and coming back home. And so that has been really important to me. But community means something more and different to me. And so you're always learning stuff, and having these aha moments, and you think that that is the last Aha, and then it gets brighter, the bulb gets a little bit brighter. So what it means to be in community and I hope all of our listeners that you feel a part of this community because we feel you, we want you as part of this community and to share these kinds of discussions. But also capitalism, white supremacy, all those things have forced in isolation on many of us, and I'll speak for myself on me that has caused that disconnection that's traumatic, that dismembering that disconnection. And so I'm coming back into community. And so lots of the classes, I'm in like 5 different classes right now whether they're related to secret sisterhood, or ancestral healing, or shape shifting your ancestral lineage through storytelling, I'm in all of these classes, but I'm also in community in ways that I would not have. All throughout my schooling, I'm the one by the door, I'm the first one out the class. I'm not getting too close to people because these were not spaces that were welcoming to me, or that I felt a sense of belonging or home in. And so even that part of my reclamation and that's what's different for me is thinking about doing all of this in community and the healing miraculous magical power of community. So, those things are changing for me and even though I can't pinpoint where and what about having had these conversations it was I sensed that there is, having talked loud about these things, and activated the energy or vibration of these things are also part of what pushes me further in this direction.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 24:18
Absolutely. By the way, my favorite word that you've taught me is reclamation. I’m already finding ways to include that in my conversation every opportunity I have. And the thing I wanted to say too Norissa is that when you were describing earlier around this piece around witnessing, and I do think that you have a way in terms of how you offer that bread or point people in the direction. There is something about the way that you do it that takes away a lot of the anxiety that I think sometimes when we think about ancestral practices, because of colonization and blackness that's rooted in it, the reactivity we have to it, there's a way that you introduce it or offer it that makes it, I don't like this word, but it's the word that's showing up very palatable, that makes it make sense, that makes it compelling, that makes it like intrigue. So, one thing that’s a gift of yours, but when you were pointing this piece around, when you gave that TD Jakes, cool, I was like, that resonates for me about you. Not only just with me, because I know that the steps I'm taking, I'm taking because of my relationship with you. And yeah, so I don't even know where I want to go with that, but I do think that there's something about how you do it, that I think is unique and specific to you, that allows that to just not be. But you're going to have this conversation with people, and you leave that just be like, Oh, that's interesting, and you walk away. But there's a way that you talk about it, that you talk about your own journey in it, your own experience in it that makes somebody say, Hmm, that not only is that interesting, but what would that look like for me? How do I find my own reclamation? Does that make sense what I'm saying?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 26:26
Oh, totally. And I think what I'm thinking as you're talking, and I think that it's because I'm in love, this is a beautiful relationship. And so I think I talk about it as someone would talk about it in a brand new relationship with a romantic partner. So there's like so much bubbly, effervescence as I'm speaking about it that makes it that much more attractive.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 26:51
Being in love. You're in love. I love it. And the other thing that I really love that you also remind us and remind the audience is that, ancestral practice is not the only way in liberation, it's just one way. It's one thing in our liberation journey. And you're right, somehow, we have landed here where we have spent a lot of time and a lot of our conversation has been about that. And I think that's part of what our hope and our interest is, being able to explore more in our upcoming season.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 27:22
Yeah, definitely. I have one last question for you as we close up in the next 5 minutes or so. I'm curious now. So I gave you a piece of bread, I was like, here's Simone’s number, call Simone. Did you call Simone? How was it? So you were able to speak. And so I don't want you to necessarily speak about what you spoke with Simone if you don't feel like it. But how do you feel after? As having taken a step on your journey.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 27:50
I'll share with the audience that a part of me was very terrified about calling Simone. And what I said to Norissa, and I told one of my other really, really good friends is, this fear that I had, that I was like, I'm opening the door to something. And there was a part of me that was afraid. I don't feel afraid anymore. And fact, what I said to yo, after the after talking with Simone, it was like, it was a very affirming experience for me. And the 2 things that Simone said to me that are really powerful is this piece around trusting my own, being able to listen to my own self and trusting my own self. I'm always questioning, and so my reading with Simone felt very encouraging and affirming of that. And I keep needing to keep hearing that's a lesson and that's a thing that I have to keep, I haven't mastered that yet. And that's all I'm saying to you. I want to activate around this thing to this random man, which I don't know, he's going to be like you crazy. But it's like, I want to trust. So, this piece around trust, I think the piece is I feel I am not afraid anymore, I feel affirmed. And the other thing too is that Simone was talking about her being in the closet when she first started discovering her gifts. So Simone shared some information with me, that requires me to go back to my family to ask the questions. And I asked my mom, who is not going to be the source of the answer. My dad is going to be the source of the answer. But I asked my mom and the question was bizarre to her. And she was like, why are you asking this question? And I didn't know how to say I spoke with a spiritual, I don't what to call Simone, but I had a struggle with, I don't know what I said, but this conversation, this last episode of this thing to get around trusting is this piece around, going to call my dad and be like, listen, I spoke with a spiritualist, and they said, and I'm curious, what shows up for you as a response to that question. And it was just really interesting to just hear this piece around, really authenticity. Just so much so much, but I think the piece I would say is, I feel I'm not afraid anymore. And when I am behaving in ways that shows that maybe I am afraid of something, this conversation or the conversation we had last episode is reminding me that's me again, going back, and I need to lean in. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think it's this piece around like, if there are folks out there I don't even know what the word is, it's like you're not trusting your, walk through the door and see what happens.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 30:58
I love it. I love it. And I also heard reclamation there. So I'm not afraid anymore. Sounds to me, like I'm remembering, I'm bringing back parts of myself. Because I mean, it's an ancestral practice, your people have done it. And so that's such a beautiful note for us to end on, and some beautiful morsels for us to think about because, we're all on this journey, we don't necessarily have a model or a whole lot of models for what this journey of degemmification, what this journey of liberation is like, and so I really love that we've created a space where we're like, you all, this is where the bread is at. So I look forward to continuing these discussions with you, with this community when we begin again for season 2.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 31:48
Absolutely. Thank you so much my friend for all of your wisdom, for sharing yourself, for leaning us in. And just again, letting us have access to the way in which you offer it that makes us want to come to the table. So I so appreciate you and I’m looking forward to Season 2 with you.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 32:12
Thank you. Thanks for all the love. You all heard the love I got this season. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 34:24
If you love what we've had to say, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Dr. Norissa Williams: 34:28
I’m Dr. Norissa, and you can find me on IG at Dr. Norissa Williams.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 34:32
And I'm Dr. Bukky, you can find me on IG at the official Dr. Bukky.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 34:37
You can also stay abreast of our latest offerings on our website radicalremembering.com
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