Freedom is a powerful thing. It gives you the ability to do whatever you want, be who you want, and make the right decisions for you. Liberation is about choosing how you want to live and having the right to do so. It's about having the right to say no when someone else wants something from you. It's about having a voice in your community and being respected by those around you.
In this episode, Dr. Norissa and Dr. Bukky, the podcast hosts, go through Dr. Bukky’s liberation journey. Dr. Bukky shares more details about her deGEMMification process, her experience before her call to action, and her activation points through liberation. Dr. Bukky also sheds more light on her evolution towards liberation, liberation in a predominantly black context, and liberation is a lifelong journey.
Timestamps
[00:47] Dr. Bukky’s deGEMMification process
[13:06] Dr. Bukky’s experience before her call to action
[15:01] Dr. Bukky’s activation points through liberation
[17:17] Dr. Bukky’s evolution towards liberation
[21:21] Liberation in a predominantly black context
[26:44] Liberation is a lifelong journey
Notable Quotes
(01:36) “Liberation is not a linear process. It is more of a circular process.”
(03:54) “Go into the spaces and get what you need, don’t do more than that. Bringing yourself all up is going to set you more for pain and hurt.”
(05:12) “Protect yourself, these spaces are not constructed for you and they will take from you, break you and discard you.”
(16:00) “To become liberated, there is an intentional decision we make to say we are no longer going to be a GEMM.”
(21:29) “White supremacy continues to stand on its ground because of all the different systems of opression that we have.”
(26:36) “Liberation is a lifelong process, and it is always about how we are leveling up.”
Relevant Links
Radical Remembering Podcast
Website: https://radicalremembering.com/
Connect with Dr. Norissa
Connect with Dr. Bukky
We all have challenges in life. Sometimes it can seem impossible to get over them. But by listening to Radical Remembering Podcast, you will be given a clear path on how to move forward, making your journey as smooth as possible. Radical Remembering is a podcast series designed to help you understand the radical process of liberation and healing. This outstanding podcast will help you feel comfortable in the midst of your own liberation process. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Don’t miss out on our next podcast; tell a friend about us.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:01
Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:04
Dr. Norissa
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:05
And Dr. Bukky
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:06
This is a weekly conversation where we explore the ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to be liberated.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:12
Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. What's up, you all, welcome back to Radical Remembering. I'm Dr. Bukky.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:28
And I'm Dr. Norissa.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:29
Today, our topic is actually my story. I'm telling my story of my process, right?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:35
Yeah. So last time, I touched around on little pieces and parts of my story about what has your liberation journey or your degemification process been like?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:47
Yeah, I think it is easier for me to talk about, while I think about degemification and liberation quite similarly, it is also easy for me to talk about degemification, my degemification process. In one of our previous episodes, I really named for people the different kinds of gems that I believe exist. And one of the ones I called myself and I would say is like I was a good and obedient gem subtype. And if I'm being real about it, given where I am, this is the work I'm doing, is that under high stress, I can relapse going back into that, but my ability to see myself and modify is what's different. And so, part of what I do think is important for our listeners, I appreciate you saying this last time is like, it's not a linear process. So, I think that the story that comes to mind when I think about my degemification process really is being, I remember being at events, a professional development experience, and this actually white queer woman, actually no, she doesn’t identify as a woman, she's white, queer, gender non-conforming, non-binary person came up to me and was like, I'm so glad you're here. And I remember being really struck by that. And part of the reason, something about this model that I learned in this community. So, it was like a training focused on deepening peoples skills in that model. And I remember her, she uses she/her pronouns. I remember her sort of describing. And I had been in these spaces before, so I knew exactly what she was talking about when she said that, but it was like a relief for her that I was there. And I just remember being struck by that. Anyway, we proceeded to have a, we were in the train, and I'm one of the people, the supervisors, like the helpers in that training community. And the trainer at the time made this comment about how men are socialized versus how women are socialized, but he made this generalization, and whatever he said, didn't land well inside of me. And I remember feeling activated by it, but what I had gotten really good at was swallowing my activation, and doing nothing. And I remember, there is also a story I wanted to actually tell before this story, where I totally let it go, one of the things that I remember, one of my supervisors in the past, when I had had one of my pretty major traumatic experiences racially at a predominantly white institution I used to work at. I called her and one of the things she said to me is like she asked me a question around why I was so willing to give up myself, even though these people are never going to really be able to appreciate or see me. And so, the gist of what she said was around this piece around, go into the spaces and get what you need, get what you need and don't do more than that. But this piece of bringing yourself in all of that is just going to keep setting you up for more pain and hurts. And this, by the way, was one of the first Black psychologists I had met on my journey, who I am so grateful to. I have never walked into a space, this is me digressing, let me come back. By the way, Norissa, you’ve got to help focus me around here.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 04:20
I’m a professional listener, I'm listening.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 04:24
I am so grateful to her. Dr. Holman, if you're listening, I will be forever grateful to you. Dr. Holman was one of the first people that when I walked into her space as I was a training psychologist, I hadn’t even said shit, and I walked in and you could just see Dr. Holman was so glad I was there. And there's something about that feeling, that you remember those moments, you remember those feelings when people look at you with just delight that you're here, you don't have to prove anything, literally you are already accepted just walking through the doors. And those moments are really, so Dr. Holman is one of those people inside of me and my professional journey that helped me feel that way. Anyway, so when I had some incident that happened, I called her, she was like, get what you need in the spaces, just essentially the gist of what she was saying, protect yourself, protect yourself, these spaces are not constructed for you, and they will take from you and they will break you, and they will discard you. So, protect yourself. And it was the first time that professionally, somebody had told me that and then it was a black woman. I put that thing in my pocket, and that's how I was rolling. So, when I was in the space then, I remember being activated and knowing that comment didn't land right, it didn't land right as a person who was socialized as a woman, it didn’t land right as a queer person, as a gender non-conforming person, a masculine centered person. It didn't land right for many, many ways. And I can't remember what he said exactly. Anyway, so I swallowed it. And so, this person then starts to speak up. And by the way, if you think about the power, the hierarchy in the room, there is the trainer, then they're the people who are the supervisors who are the assistants, myself was one of those people included, and then you have the trainees who are in the room. So, because I swallowed, then she had to be the one who had to be like, excuse me, what you just said didn’t land well for me. And then like went into it. And I can't remember what transpired, but it opened up a whole conversation and it was really, really upsetting. I think maybe the next comment, maybe the trainer maybe offered, I don't remember. But I know, I ultimately, she was really upset, I had to walk out with her, make sure she was okay, all of that. And I remember in my inside of me saying this, I cannot play small anymore. I cannot be in spaces where I have more power, and then the people who have the least amount of power are the ones who then have to then stand up. And I'm doing damage control afterwards. That's not okay. So, if I'm going to hold power, I need to be able to use my power. Because things would have landed differently had I been the one to make the comment, right? She could have gotten my back whatever. But the way in which she felt harmed in that experience, I felt partially responsible for because of my silence. And so that was a moment inside of me, I think you remember before this moment, I told you the story previously, where Marjorie had made that comment to me and I was already starting my own thinking around this, I was already in the encounter, and I was already in what you call the encounter phase, where I would describe it as the awakening phase for me. But this propelled me into what I would call my preparation stage where I was at the end of the awakening stage. For me, that first step is a decision to say I don't want to be a gem anymore, I'm no longer being okay with being a gem. So, I remember I made a commitment to myself in that to say that wasn't cool. And I remember actually calling the trainer, I was like, Yo, we need to talk about what happened. And the trainer actually called me and was like, what's up? And we were talking. And I was describing how there has to be some, I can't remember what I was trying to explain to him. But he said this coming around, I was trying to tell him about the importance of really thinking about marginalized identities when he's making comments and all of these things. And I remember him saying something along the lines of, I'm sorry, I don't always get the detail, but something along the lines of, what about the white cis people too? We need to be thoughtful about the models. And I was like, what are you talking about? The models were constructed for white cis people. I don't need any extra, that's exactly what my entire construction of how I work. He said, No, no, no, there's an additional piece that is required here, and you don't get to say, and don't forget about the white cis people too. And that's not to devalue the humanity of white cis people, I'm just saying, the world's already built for you, literally the way that I am trained to work as a clinician and all of us are trained to work. So, I just remember, even you can hear my activation now because I remember being so caught off guard by just the lack of consciousness on his part. And he wasn't trying to be disrespectful, it was just like, in his mind, let's make sure we're balancing the scales out
Dr. Norissa Williams: 09:20
That’s a defensive response, right? So, there's, you know
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 09:24
1,000%, but the piece that I just remember, it was one of those pieces where I realized, and part of it was because, you see how the amount of energy that just came up in me right now, it was that kind of energy that I responded back with. And that's the kind of energy that I was always worried about not having leak out of me. I couldn't let people see that I would get activated and maybe even feel enraged about ignorant comments. I think that's a piece, one of the things that's a fundamental value for me is really related to this piece around, there's a piece around a value I hold deeply around like, I don't know what the right words would be or how I want to frame it, but it's this piece around, she can't happen on my watch. And it was a moment that I saw myself because of the way I’m a gem, that I let that happen on my watch. And that wasn't okay. So that was the crisis of conscience, but that was the moment where I said, I ain't doing this no more. And literally since then, has been me running. I've been running since then. So that's my story. And I always talk about this, I'm a gal in recovery, is this piece around recognizing that I relapsed. One of the things that I've gotten clear around, when I think about internalized racial oppression, and which of the symptoms of it is still in me, alive in me, it's this piece around protectionism. And protectionism is what we call when you protect the white people, when you're constantly always thinking about the danger of what happens when white people get dysregulated, and so you make a lot of moves to prevent and avoid triggering white people, so that bad things won’t happen. And for a lot of the ways that I moved, historically, has really been really softening myself because of the messages that I've received historically, I was rude, disrespectful, too direct, whatever word you want to throw at me about that I've been told. And so there's this part of me that somehow has believed that I think we can always be responsible with our words, and our words certainly have impact, but there's a racialized piece that feels very present in that for me, that I'm always now thinking about, and it's still my journey, it's still literally the thing I struggle with me. But when I have people that I know I gotta be accountable to, I know that there are people who have less power than me, it is what also fuels me to know that, if I want to say I'm going to be silent, one could ask about my own relationship with my own self. If I'm standing on my own, put myself aside and let it happen just so that the space doesn't experience conflict, which is, again, we know what that's rooted in. But I think the point I'm making is just that, that is the piece that I am actively working on, is around my ability to tell my truth, regardless of the ways in which it's going to land for the person who is hearing. That is one thing I'm in progress around.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 12:45
Thanks for sharing. I'm thinking though, so for it to be something. So, the way that it landed with you is like, Okay, I'm never going to be, it sounded like a commitment to action. But it sounded like there would have had to have been something before that. And is that what you were describing as your experience with Margaret? Something before that for it to even land in you in that way
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 13:06
If you remember the story I told at the beginning of I think our first episode, what allowed me to start waking up, I remember talking about soul work, and this conversation I had with Marjorie, another clinician, where she was like, even black therapists aren’t talking with their black and brown clients about race. And I was like, can you believe it? And I was sitting there, like, Oh, my God, I'm one of those people. That literally, I'm not raising it unless my clients are raising it. Why? Because of these beliefs that I had that for me to do so is me imposing my agenda. So, there's a piece around ways in which I was already waking up, I was already growing in my consciousness. And then to observe me, because I told you I said, I noticed that comment, it wasn’t like I didn't notice the comments, I heard the comments, I was activated by the comments, but I was like, no, it’s okay. It's a microaggression, it's okay, whatever, let's keep it moving. Whereas she, the trainee was like, nah, my ears can't have heard that kind of comment, and I just sit and do nothing about it. That makes sense?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 14:15
No, it makes total sense. So, what I'm thinking, thinking about your story and my story, thinking about how I said that it's not a linear process, but a circular process, it seems like there are different, and I'll also just use that term activation, different activation points in our liberation journeys that take us like, Okay, another step higher, meaning there was an awakening to general consciousness of myself as a racialized being, myself in a racialized context, myself in anti-racist kind of action is what I'm hearing. And this story is speaking to what provoked you to degemified action or liberated action, as opposed to even just it being an ideological kind of process
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 15:01
Yes, the thing I would just clarify is like it, remember how I say, to me, in order to degemify, there has to be a point where you decide no longer to be a gem. I am no longer going to be a good effective model or mainstream minority. So, prior to that, I could be in that room, he could make that comment, and I remember that comment wasn't necessarily a racialized comment, it was actually about gender. But as a black, queer, gender non-conforming person in that room, whatever he said, did not sit well. And to say something felt disruptive, it felt like ticking this white man off his agenda, right? That's not what we're here for. All of those things that allow us to let microaggressions macroaggressions occur in our presence, and we do nothing or say nothing about it. So the piece though is, I think in order to degemify or to become liberated, I don't know if you agree with this, I think there's a point where there's an intentional decision we make to say, we are no longer going to, I would say be a gem, I think the way that I would frame it, if I was talking about it using your terminology is saying where I'm no longer playing small. I want to be in alignment with my power, I want to become more liberated, to be able to activate my voice. Because I think in order for you to activate one's voice needs to have been that intentional decision to say, I want to be liberated, or I no longer want to be a gem anymore.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 16:38
I definitely would say the same. And so now what I'm curious about are the in betweens. So, you describe this circumstance and this circumstance, and these are pivotal points for our enacting or moving further in our process. But what happens in between? And what is the process between like, I don't know, what was the one pivotal thing right before that, or the one pivotal thing? Because we always tend to think I think, in our society, or in our culture about those times that have phases, right? What was happening in between that last time and this time that prepared you?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 17:17
Yeah, it's interesting the language you're using, because literally, you remember said, for me, there are these four phases. There's an awakening, there's a preparation, then there's taking steps, and then there's maintenance. I think that after the conversation with Marjorie, where I started waking up, after I went to Soul, where I started waking up, part of what I started getting hungry for was about information, and wanting to be in community with people who were already more conscious than myself. But I think for me, it was like, I'm moving into, what are the ways in which I am having a better grasp or understanding of what I'm in, of what's influenced me to develop a racial literacy. And so, I think that it was for me a process of starting to collect information, and finding community, who are the people who I could relate to? Who are my people in this conversation? Who then I can then be like, when things are coming up, they're the ones I'm calling to say, Yo, this is happening, what do I do? Or how do I do? So, I think it's the pieces around community building, this piece of finding my people. And I think it's around also consuming information that is focused on evolving my consciousness. Does that answer your question?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 18:42
Absolutely. And so now, I have another thought. And so, this is a little bit different, and in a different vein, but I'm thinking about, because we've been talking about what it is to be black or a person of color, what it is to be minoritized within a setting, right? What if you're in a setting, if you're already black, or a person of color, and it's predominantly people of color in that setting, what might their process be like? There, of course, will be some overlap, but what do you think their experience might be like?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 19:14
I'm not sure I understand your question. Ask it again.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 19:17
So, I should tell you what brought the question. I remember when I was teaching at Medgar Evers College, 90 something 98% Black. And a lot of the students, even if they've had mostly white women teachers in their K through 12 education, they'd still been in predominantly black context, and had also had black teachers, while growing up, I didn't have many black teachers. And so a lot of what I said, but I think this is also developmental, I think a lot of them who kind of pushed back against what I was saying at the time would think of it different now, especially since they're out in the world and in contexts that are predominantly white. But how does this conversation relate to people who have been in predominantly black contexts?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 20:04
How are they? What's your sense of it?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 20:06
That's real smart, give it back to me. Well, I was probably in my 30s, before I worked in, I mean, it's different when you’re adjunct, because you're in and out, you don't really work in a context, but most of my work contexts before that were predominantly black. And so, when we think about power, I felt like in those contexts, it wasn't necessarily about race, but you've seen gender dynamics play out and different things like that. And, I guess I'm asking because I'm wanting to be able to be inclusive of people with those experiences too, if they're like, Well, how does this relate to me? Because I've worked in an all black context, and that has not been my experience. I guess my answer and my sense to that is really, I guess, I asked you a question I didn't really have an answer to. But I'm thinking that we broaden our understanding to say that even if that is not your situation now because you're in a predominantly black or person of color context, that still we live in a larger society where those dynamics play out, and we still need to open our eyes to how it plays out by way of more macro level stuff, like our laws, our policies, and different things like that, and how they do silence us.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 21:21
I mean, I agree with you, I would say, because I don't believe white supremacy only stands its ground because of racism only. I think white supremacy continues to stand its ground because of all the different systems of oppression that we have. Whether it's homophobia, like ableism, classism, all of those things. And the other thing too is, because we are in a context of predominantly black folk, doesn't necessarily mean that folks are not necessarily any less affected by white supremacy ideology. So, I think there's a piece around, I think the way you framed it seems like a really nice way to think about it. But I think this piece around saying, I'd be curious about for folks who are in that context, who are listening to our podcast, what they came for, what's their struggle about? Because if in fact it's all peachy, then I don't know that you would look for a podcast that's about liberation. Am I making sense?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 22:25
You are. Well, two things that I'm thinking. So the first thing that I'm thinking is that building on what you were saying too, we've so internalized oppression, our media has been indoctrinating us all those kinds of things that we still within these contexts, even if it is predominantly black need to think about the way white supremacy plays out. So, for example, competition. I've seen that even in an all black context, that play out like, you feeling threatened by me because you think that my reception, my positive reception means less of your reception, it means you got to fight white supremacy culture. And so, I think that part of that is really still thinking about the dynamics. So, the players might look like you and they might be the same complexion as you, but the lateral aggression may still play out even if they are not present. So, I think that that's an important part of the conversation. And that says that it's still very relevant for you to think about white supremacy culture and the ways the psyche has been colonized. And then the other part is, I think that there's varied reasons why people might still tune in. Like the radical remembering, what is that? What is the ancestral work? What is all these kinds of things? But I'm glad that I asked, because for a second, I was like, I want to take back that question. But I think it caused us to really, I guess, think through it, and really speak in ways that is inclusive of varied experiences.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 23:51
I think I was noticing, I was like, was my response defensive? I was like, I was noticing, I was like, I think my response was a little defensive.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 24:00
So, I think that we have a lot to think about, and so none of these conversations are complete. So even when I spoke about my liberation journey, when you spoke about your liberation journey, it cannot fully encapsulate all that is entailed, but we hope that it'll leave you. So, Mark Niebo, who's a poet, philosopher, and I just love his words. Mark Niebo speaks about stories being medicine. And so, in our medicine pouch, we have our little stories that are little medicines that we kind of sprinkle all around. So, it is our hope that even in the sprinkling of this medicine, of Bukky's medicine of my medicine, that there's something that you can hear and kind of latch on to and make meaning for your own journey. But we'll continue to keep having these conversations. Because the major part of liberation, as far as I'm concerned is realizing like Harriet Tubman said, I could have freed 1000 more if only they knew. You know what I mean? If only they knew they were enslaved. And I think that there's so many ways that we don't realize that we've been colonized, that we've been enslaved. So, the more we talk, the more stories that you will hear. You know what I mean? The more you can think about like, oh shit, I got some work to do, I need to think about that, I need to journal about that, you know what I mean?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 25:11
And I think part of the piece I felt like really feels important for me to be owning as a co-host of this podcast is that, and I think this is a lifelong process, right? Because I would not say that I feel like I am liberated all the time. I want that. And in fact, the part that's beautiful is, I feel like I have models now of people who I believe would probably show up liberated in all contexts and all moments. And that's amazing to be able to have that kind of model in my mind, because it tells me that it exists. But it feels important for me to be, I’m humbling myself to be transparent around, I'm still in journey, right? This is the piece of where when I'm hearing you, and I'll speak from a previous podcast, Cynthia, talking about ancestral practices to be thinking about, what are the ways in which I'm actively, right? So, there’s pieces around the ways in which I engage power systems, but what are the ways that I'm actually showing up that claim and I'm remembering as a Nigerian born person, and reclaiming my own identity and practices as a Yoruba person. So that's a whole new space for me. So, liberation is me actually doing my work to start to walk that talk. So, my point is just, this is a lifelong process, and I think it's always about this piece around, how will you ever line up?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 26:43
Yeah, I love that. And it's important too, because it's not as though we're just healing from something in the past. So, when I think of liberation, healing is necessary for it, right? So, it's not as though we're dealing with someone's past, there are constant opposing forces that would attempt to suppress our liberation. And so, it's an everyday kind of process. So, I do think that we will always be in journey. I'm not going to engage myself in fighting whiteness and white supremacy, meaning that is not my main struggle, my main struggle is to be me, and to be authentically me, rooted in my own ethnic racial identity and background. But at the same time, realizing that until the society changes, until we don't have systems of domination any longer. So, it'll definitely be an ongoing process. So great conversation.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 27:40
Likewise.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 27:41
And we look forward to the next one. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 27:47
If you love what we've had to say, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Dr. Norissa Williams: 27:52
I’m Dr. Norissa, and you can find me on IG at Dr. Norissa Williams.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 27:56
And I'm Dr. Bukky, you can find me on IG at the official Dr. Bukky.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 28:00
You can also stay abreast of our latest offerings on our website radicalremembering.com
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