The first internalized messages about race are the most damaging. They can take root in children from a young age and be passed on from parent to child, generation to generation, for years. These messages are often related to skin color or physical appearance. For example: "Black people are lazy." "White people are better." "Black people should not talk so loud." "White people should not smile so much." These types of messages can be especially dangerous because they encourage stereotypes and bias against certain groups without even realizing it!
In this episode, Dr. Norissa and Dr. Bukky, the podcast hosts, share Dr. Norissa’s story on internalizing messages about race, Dr. Bukky’s story of first internalized messages about race, and implicit and explicit messages. They also clearly shed more light on radical hierarchy and lateral aggression, the four kinds of radical socialization, and black pride.
Timestamps
[00:44] Dr. Norissa’s story on internalizing messages about race
[14:13] Dr.Bukky’s story on internalizing messages about race
[21:18] Implicit and explicit messages
[24:01] Radical hierarchy and the lateral aggression
[26:03] The four kinds of radical socialization
[29:26] Black pride
Notable Quotes
(00:46) “We are in a society where we are always internalizing messages that we are not always concious of.”
(21:18) “All these messages we are receiving, they are implicit and explicit.”
(23:44) “We can’t heal what we don’t reveal.”
(24:06) “We want to feel a sense of belonging so we will gravitate to people who we feel more like a shared sense of identity.”
(31:49) “Black i beautiful.”
Relevant Links
Radical Remembering Podcast
Website: https://radicalremembering.com/
Connect with Dr. Norissa
Connect with Dr. Bukky
This podcast is designed to be helpful to you as a listener and perhaps even more so to those who are on their healing path. Have you ever wanted to hear what it was like for someone who has lived every day of their life with Purpose in mind? This is Radical Remembering Podcast. Radical Remembering is a podcast that will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Don’t miss out on our next podcast; tell a friend about us.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:01
Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:04
Dr. Norissa
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:05
And Dr. Bukky
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:06
This is a weekly conversation where we explore the ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to be liberated.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:12
Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. What's up you all welcome back to Radical Remembering. We are so excited to be back here with you all. Our conversation today is going to be about, when did you start internalizing messages about race? So that's the piece we're going to lean into and start to unpack and explore. We’ve got stories for you, so let's get into it. Norissa, do you want to start with when did you start?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:43
Yeah. So, stories come to mind for me, but it's important for us to realize that we're in a society where we're always internalizing messages that we're not always conscious of. So according to the research, we first become, I mean, in a context like this that is racially heterogeneous or racially diverse, we begin to think about or recognize differences between race at an earlier point in our development than, let's say, countries where people of color are the majority or of the same background, racial background. And so as early as 8 months old, babies can distinguish the differences between people of different races in pictures, what they noticed is that it takes them a longer time to habituate. If we have an 8 month old shown the pictures of a white face a black face, an Asian face, or whatever, when it's somebody of their same race, they look at it and they keep moving, when it's somebody of a different race, they look at it for a longer time, which signifies the fact that they haven't habituated to it, it is not typical for them or presented so they can distinguish the differences between. Then that continues, around 3 to 5 years old, we begin to really think about race and ourself as a racialized being, and other people as being of different races. Around the later part of that around 5 ish, especially when you start to enter schools and different things like that is when they're really downloading the template, right? The caste system of race in whatever context that we're in, so in America, this racial hierarchy, and they're considering who they are within this caste system. And so, the first time that I can remember thinking about race, and at home, I didn't have to think about it. Before I moved to Long Island, before kindergarten, I didn't think about it because I was in a place where it was predominantly black. But I remember being invited to this birthday party in kindergarten. And I remember, they were a bunch of white girls, it was me and this other black girl. And I remember that we were in the basement, and they were just running back and forth screaming and yelling, having fun, being liberated, I guess. Having fun, and I remember feeling on the outside, and there were some personality differences, so I was very shy and reserved. So I wasn't one who could jump right into that, I was watching and finding my space. Culturally, also, that kind of I want to say unbridled, but it's not, that is a cultural assessment of the behavior, but just being wild and having an emotional or loud or excitement that's also not culturally continent from my ethnic background. And so those things played into it. But I remember thinking, Oh, they're white people, and I'm not in, because I also realized in that time, because we all went to school together. But in that time, I realized that their mothers knew each other, that they played together. So, they had this whole community, granted, they lived on the white side of town, and I lived on the black side of town, some of that had everything to do with it. And we can look at how societies shape race and experience of race too, because if we live in a mixed neighborhood, maybe that wouldn't have been the case. But what I started thinking is, it was almost because I'm black, you know what I mean? I didn't feel like I fit in, I didn't feel like I was as desired to play with. And I remember looking at the other black girl, and she fit right in, and they were grabbing her hand and running and different things like that. And I was thinking as early as I was, like, Oh, she acts like them. So basically, so she's in the set. And feeling incapable of acting like that, that's how I felt. And then is when I really began to feel like I was on the outside and internalized race in those ways. And all the other experiences after that are still also related to school context. I'm sure that there are so many other instances. Okay, so, when honors classes when they started to stratify in tracks in my school was like 6th 7th grade, and I was in honors classes. What I noticed is that these classes were predominantly white, very few people of color, even smaller number of black people. And all my friends were not in honors classes, the people I was at the bus stop with and lived in my community, they were black people, but they were not in these classes. So again, I may not have consciously been internalizing this message, but that says something about who's smart, who's not smart kind of thing, right? And then another specific memory, I remember being in 12th grade in, I don't know, was it like AP Chemistry or something like that, some science class. And the papers were being handed back. And it was supposedly a hard test, but I had like a 98 or something like that. And there was two girls in front of me, and they turned around, they were like, what did you get? Imagine these people never talked to me, we had been in the same classes for like, 5, 6 years straight, but they asked What did I get? And I was like, 98. And then she turned around to everybody, what? Norissa got a 98. Could you believe that? Because I didn't study, I didn't do this so it was shocking that Norissa, and I knew it was me being a black person. Norissa did better than me, how could that be? It has to be because I didn't put my, you know what I mean? She's not smarter than me. Mind you, the thing that was always ironic about that, to me is we're in honors classes, you don't just walk up into honors classes, I have consistently gotten good grades enough to be in honors classes, so you shouldn't be shocked that I'm here. But similarly, I remember even raising my hands and the teachers not thinking that I had the answers, not even calling on me, not even knowing my name, even though I was with them for a year. So, all of those things I'm internalizing. And then now that I'm thinking about this, one more story I remember is that probably that same year or the year before, it was a day when it was like a trip, and this white guy was pacing back and forth. And so, the irony about this story is that he wasn't even in all honors classes. This was like the only honors class that he was in, but he was pissed for whatever reason, and he was like, our overall GPA for the school would be higher, and we would be higher in ranking if there weren't so many black people in the school. There were three black people in the room. I was like, what? Excuse me. And so, me Trinidadian descent, there was two other Jamaican born, but had moved to America at a young age, people in the room, I was like, what? Why would you say that? You got 3 black people right here, and we're in honors classes. And he was like, I'm not talking about you. So, first of all, he totally dismissed us. I'm not talking about you, you're not black. And we were like, what? He was like you’re Caribbean, it’s different. And so I rejected that. Thankfully, I rejected that message that I was different from black and black Americans or whatever. But I also got a nice litmus test of like, he said, what the system had already been saying, he clearly internalized from what I imagined his messages from his family, as well as these messages he's downloading from the school environment and society at large. I'm sure that there were many incidents that probably can't remember or that I wasn't conscious of internalizing, but those were critical moments that really spoke to me about my belonging, in a context about how smart whether or not I was really smart or whether or not it was just a fluke that I was getting by or whether or not I was a token in the space kind of things. So those were some of the first times that I internalized these negative messages about myself as a racialized being.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 08:36
Yeah, I know, when I listen to you talk about this Norissa, somebody who did not grow up in this country, folks who are watching, you might remember, if you recall previous episodes, I grew up in Nigeria, it just makes me just, we're both parents, and I don't know if this is same for you, I'm just thinking about our kids, and just thinking about their journey. And this is the piece that I feel like as a person who grew up in Nigeria, there's a sadness that shows up in me because my children, especially my daughter, so I'm in a queer interracial relationship, where my kids are both multiracial kids, but my son is very white passing and my daughter is darker skin, and closer to my complexion. My hope is that she would be closer to my complexion by the end of the day, but when I hear you describing, there's just a sadness in me that I just feel there's a journey that she specifically will walk that I haven't walked. And I don't know if you think about it too, but there's just a piece that when you tell these stories, there is just a sadness that shows up in me around this conversation. I just want to put space, which is about your experiences that you had, also thinking about our children and what they will also walk
Dr. Norissa Williams: 10:01
It's so important to prepare. So Black Americans when they study racial socialization, they’re the only group because it's by necessity I think that might be changing since George Floyd that people are socializing their children about race outside of the black community, well, black American community because it doesn't happen on the continent, nor does it happen in the Caribbean. But by necessity, we have to socialize our children in America about what it is to be black. So, preparation for bias. There are about four different kinds of racial socialization messages. But when speaking of our children, it happened to my son. So, I remember when he was in kindergarten, the teacher called me and she was saying that he's having a problem learning and this that, that the other, and he was even crying, 5 years old, he burst out crying one time we were driving down the street because he couldn't read the sign, the street sign and everybody else in his class could read. He was vibrant, smart, outgoing, bold, all these things until school. And so when I tried to ask, I was like, Well, what makes you think that he has a problem learning? And so she said, Well, I asked him what the weather was today, and he said it was hot. And I was like, it was. And he was like, no, she said, No, no, no, that's an answer to temperature. Oh, that is so random. I was in my doctoral program, I was like, I'm on my way to a doctorate, and I still would have said it, it didn't sound wrong to me. So that is really subjective. And not appropriate for you to judge his intellect or his ability to learn from. So yeah, that was the beginning of when I saw him change. And so today, he's 16 going to be 17 in October, what I see in him today is a less bolder, less of a risk taker because of those earlier educational, because kindergarten and first grade were hard, after that, I took him out of that school system. I was driving him to Brooklyn every day from Queens, New York, to go to a charter school because I wanted him to have a different experience. I mean, that's still another story to go on. But I think that that's a fair consideration, like, what will our children go through? How are we prepared to mend that damage? What do we do to prevent it or for them to have different experiences altogether?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 12:21
Yeah, I know. As somebody who didn't grow up in this country, I cannot explain. I think other listeners who maybe grew up in other African countries or in the Caribbean, places where like, racially homogenous, I just feel like, it's a difference. And I think that piece that I feel grateful for is my especially because of the work that I do, just my clarity and, or my ability to support him through it, and support them through it in terms of having language, and being able to make space, being able to raise the topic with our kids, and to be able to check in. so, I feel equipped in that way. And we got to have a whole different episode around just parenting, but it's just a piece around, oin some ways you growing up in this country, have some information viscerally, that I do not have that allows you to be able to, you know what I'm saying? So it's just a piece around difference. And so, I think it's just us being able to make space and we gotta be able to hold for that, and not get hopeless. Because at the end of the day, it's around, what are the protective messages we are in fact sending to our kids and helping them feel rooted and helping them feel clear around who they are, who our people are. I love the stories like Cynthia was telling in episode 1 of those past episode is, when you're clear about who you come from, what your lineage is, then it's this piece around, I can do anything, I can do literally anything regardless of what the world says I can.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 14:06
Thank you. So, what's your experience? When did you start internalizing messages about race?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 14:13
I do trainings around race. I always sing this song, black black black sheep, have you any wool? Yes, sir. Yes, sir three bags full. One for the master, one for the dame. One for the little boy that lives down the lane. And I sing that song because it's the song that when I was in the seventh grade, the boys in my school this is in Nigeria, in Ibadan, Nigeria would sing when I would walk by. And what was always clear to me is that they were poking fun at me and they were poking fun at me because of how dark my skin is. But what didn't make sense to me was that the people singing the songs looked like me. I literally did not get it, I literally did not understand, I just I didn't get it. And it wasn't until maybe in the last past, I would say 5 to 7 years that it actually clicked. And so, this piece around, growing up in Nigeria, and me and my cousin were having a conversation around this piece about, in Nigeria, how much were we dealing with race as people? So, the piece that's clear to me now is, again, I talked about how global anti-blackness is. And what my young classmates were, was a piece around anti-blackness, that's certainly rooted in them. But it didn't make sense to me. So, when I tell my real story around my first messaging around race, I think that really was it. But the reality is, it didn't have meaning for me, I think until I got to this country. I can't remember the specific stories, but I know that the two things that was coming to mind is pieces of remembering, there's a story I have inside of me that's not fully fleshed out. But remembering when I first moved to this country, in that first year, I was about 12 years old, and rejecting the notion of being black. And that was a really sad story, that story is painful for me to talk about, because whenever I see anti blackness in me, it is always painful. Especially when I think about it as a young person, when I think about a literal version. And part of what I talk about is this piece around, I'm not actually clear. I think the root of my not identifying as black when I first moved to this country or rejecting the notion that I'm black, was because it felt like it erased my identity as a Yoruba person, as a Nigerian. Because growing up in Nigeria, the piece that we owned were our ethnic identities as Yoruba people, or national identity as Nigerian, and even African. For a while, I'm like, just don't call me African, you got to name what kind of African I am. So, there's a piece around remembering that, my struggle with owning my black identity. Because it was an idea that was imposed on me moving to a country that treats it like racial heritage. That wasn't real for me in Nigeria. But then the other piece that I also remember, the other stories that I remember at a young age is, I remember walking in 7/11, and being on a 7/11 with my friends, my white friends, and noticing that I got followed around. I used to write poetry when I was in 9th grade. And so I remember writing poetry about racism. So, some things were happening for me. And I also remember being in the 10th grade, or in the 11th grade, and one of my white friends, it's really interesting when people actually look at me when I was in high school, I had my black friends, and I had my white friends. And I was one of those kids, you know how when you think about the book, Why Are The Black Kids Sitting Together in Cabinets, I was one of those kids literally like lunch, half of my time was spent at the table of my black friends, and half of the time was spent at the table with my white friends. Literally it was like this African, this Nigerian person, trying to figure out what race is doing in this country, going back and forth. But I remember, there was one time I was in the locker room with my white friends. And I can't remember what the context of what we were talking about was, my best friend at the time made some kind of comment where she was trying to say something about me and she was like, the only person, I can’t remember. It's interesting. This is how our mind erases painful details, because I can remember the feeling but I can't remember the contents of what was said. She said something around the only person in here that's not, I don’t think she said that's not white, but there was an othering. Whatever she said, it was about me as black relative to the 3 of them. And it was a comment about other, and that felt like that because I remember being mad. I remember being mad at her, we ended up having a conversation around that, but I don't remember the context. But my point is, these are the small moments. The other piece that I think you and I was talking about earlier that I also wanted to name too is that also internally inside of my own home, was also dealing with my own families, their own struggle around race and the devaluing, really anti-blackness that was permeating inside of our home. I remember my mom being clear about, don't bring American boys, black American boys into my home really was what she was saying. There's a word in Yoruba that is used to refer to black American people. It's a derogatory word. And it's like a word, like, whenever you're becoming too Americanized. That's a word that like, Ah, you're turning into, then they use that word. So, it's just like all these messages. But I think the pieces that I would name is this piece around, not only the internalized messages around blackness, but also that hierarchy that exists between Africans and black American people, or Caribbean people, which if you go to the root of it, is related to this piece around the different ways we reject each other. But it's just all of these places that we get these messages around our blackness and a devaluation of our blackness. It's just that and it's real.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 21:17
It is. All these messages that we're receiving, there are some implicit and explicit. So, it might have been said, Oh, don't bring home American boys, but it was understood that you really meant black American boys and how we internalize that. I like to call our attention to the implicit messages too, because we tend to think about, what are the explicit experiences? What are the explicit messages? And we don't think about those things. And so similarly, in my household, there weren't a whole lot of messages, but even if it's 5 messages, but 100% of those messages are all negative, they land somewhere. Because I remember, it was a big insult to be called a Yankee, like, oh you’re behaving like a Yankee? Oh, look at this Yankee. And it was a rejection too, like you're not like us, you're not Trinidadian, and in that whole thing is this higher estimation of whatever. And so, it wasn't always about race, but somewhere inherent, I feel like it is about race. The only reason why I say it wasn't always, because it was also like that about white people too. That was a statement that was specific to all of Americans. But then there was I remember specifically, we used to have a lot of work done in the house. So, the bathroom was getting retiled or the kitchen, so different things, and I remember specifically my grandmother saying, I heard her actually, she wasn't talking to me, you can’t hire black people to do work, they're so lazy, it'll take them so long. But you hire a white man, they’ll come in, they will do x, y and z quickly. But I remember always rejecting thankfully. And I think that had to do with the fact that I was developing a dual identity, and I definitely consider myself both African American and Trinidadian American. If you ask which one I have more of an emotional attachment to will be Trinidadian American because of the surrounds, the music does something to me, the food does something to me, that's separate and apart from an African American experience that I don't totally know. But I remember asking, because it was weird to me. I'm like, but are we not black? You're black, I'm black, how could we be saying these things?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 23:33
It's almost like you're asking, what's this distinction?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 23:36
What is this distinction? So, all of these, I think, integral to our healing is us bringing to our awareness, so we can't heal what we don't reveal. So, bringing to our awareness these messages that we have internalized and really started to think about our place in society. Oh, and then there was another thought about when you were speaking about these racial hierarchies and the lateral aggression. And so, there's a normal seat to us and them. So, we want to feel a sense of belonging, so I will gravitate to people who I feel more like a shared sense of identity, no matter what that is, even if we're talking gender, if it's a room with 30 men and 6 women, I'm probably going to walk over to the women. So, there's a natural us versus them. And what happens is that we flatten the experience of them, we think of ourselves in the us category as so diverse and all these kinds of things, but then we flatten their experience, they're all the same, different things like that. So, there's a natural component to categorizing and distancing ourselves from groups that we consider other, but there's lateral aggression too. And so, it's one of the masters tools. So, I'm not like you because you're a black American or you're a Nigerian or you're Ghanaian, if I'm Nigerian, I'm not like you, but that's a tool of the master. So, it's also called horizontal aggression, and that keeps oppression in place, that racial oppression in place. And I think that that's something that we need to even think about within group messages that we've received, as well as larger societal white mainstream messages that we've received about who we are and who other people of color are so that we could be able to begin to heal and investigate, undo, do something different in future generations
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 25:35
Norissa, how are we doing on time? Because there is one question I want to ask. And then I want to make sure you tell the story about when we think about your children, how are we doing on time right now?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 25:47
Just about 3 minutes to the end. So, you can ask and I'll try to make it as succinct as possible.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 25:56
Earlier, you mentioned that there are 4 different kinds of racial socialization, can you say more about that?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 26:04
Yes. I don't know why the specific names are escaping me right now. But there are 4 different types of racial socialization message. One of them is egalitarianism, everybody's the same, race doesn't matter, any of those things, that usually results in higher rates of anxiety, and depression and different things like that, because there's no preparation for the racist things that that child might receive in society. Then there's preparation for bias, that also has a higher result and a higher rate of anxiety and depression, because if we're preparing our children not to trust anything and anybody, and they're always hypervigilant and on on alert and different things like that, and not trusting anybody, that's also going to result in a higher rate of anxiety or depression. The other two messages, the names escape me, but you can google types of racial socialization messages. The other two are ones that let you know the reality of the situation. Listen, you are a black person in this context, and this context is racism. They're going to tell you this about you, but what you have to know is that this is the truth. So that and then messages about pride, like cultural pride, racial pride, all these sort of things. Those two messages serve as a buffer. So when those things come against that child, they don't internalize it, because what you would do is internalize it and say, well, it is me, I am less than it is because I and people in my group are like that, whether this is a conscious or an unconscious thought, then we're inferior. And so, when you have the other kinds of messages that are like racial pride, and all those kinds of things, you can buffer against it and say, No, this is a racist system, and I'm okay. And you have something to prepare you when those things happen.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 27:51
Well, what is the fourth one?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 27:53
Well, I can't remember the name, I should probably just Google it. But one is, it was cultural pride. And then the other one I forget the specific name
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 28:01
What about just talking about cultural pride is distinct from the one that sort of shares the reality. They're not together. But what we'd be encouraging people is doing both.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 28:16
Yeah, encouraging people to feeling proud about who they are. This is who you are, as a black person, this is where you come from. And so that means current examples within our society, but that also means before the Mayflowe. That also means going back to ancient Egyptian civilizations, and all of those kinds of things, and it strengthens them. So 1, is messages emphasizing pride and being black. 2, warnings about racial inequalities. 3, messages that deemphasize the importance of race, that was the egalitarian messages. 4, is mistrust of other ethnic groups. 5 is silence about race and racial issues. So, this was since 2015, I googled it real quick. But yeah, you can continue to do your research because the intent here is to stimulate your thinking in our conversations.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 29:14
Because the story that I'm going to invite you to tell then is one that actually does the both of this preparation plus the black pride piece. So, will you tell our listeners that story you told me earlier.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 29:25
Sure. So, my son when he first, right when they say that people you start becoming aware of themselves as a racialized being we were in and he was about 3 going 4, and CVS, and he started pointing at this man, he was like, is he blue? Mommy is he blue? He was loud too, and I was like, no, no. And then he pointed to somebody else who was also white and was like, is he blue? And I said, No, I said he's white. So now I pull him aside, you're inviting me to this conversation, I'm going to go ahead and take it all the way. So, I said he's white. I said, there are different races of people. I mean, I knew that this was over his head, but I'm laying the foundation. There are different races of people, there are white people, there are black people, there are Asian people, there are varied kinds of people. And in reality, there's no difference between us, we just look different. But we are the same I said, but in this country, they will give you negative messages about black people. So, the truth of the matter is though that black is beautiful, black is beautiful. And so, I'm instilling cultural pride in him, but also I began instilling cultural pride before he was born, because his name is Thai. And I wanted him to have an African name, and I wanted it to be something that people wouldn't butcher. And so Thai is Swahili for Eagle. And so, he knows this. He carries this with him, like, Eagle soars above the rest. That's also part of his racial and ethnic socialization that carries him. So, the funny part of this story is that a year later, he's in kindergarten, and where we live, it was a racially diverse neighborhood, but his school was only, I think it was 8%, black, and it was a very small number. At our bus stop, we were the only black people, like 30 kids, mostly Eastern European, and some Asian and some South American, Spanish speaking cultures. And so, I see him who's normally quiet, but I see him, he's slapping his hand, and he's telling the story. And I'm looking over at him, like, what is he talking about? I'm not going to interrupt, he's having a kindergarten level conversation. But he turns around, and he was like, right mommy? Right, Mommy? And I was like, what? Right you said, black is better than everything. You said, black is better than everything, right? So, parents, everybody's around. And I'm like, no, no I didn't, I said black was beautiful. But we had an opportunity to revise this message. And to go ahead after school and really reaffirm what it was that I was saying was that black is beautiful, which does not mean that anything else is less than but it means don't let anybody tell you that [crosstalk] he was hardcore too, it's still so funny to me to picture him. He was bringing his point home like, right mommy? Go ahead and tell them. But I had the opportunity to revise the message. I mean, I told the earlier story about how he was in school, there were prejudicial experiences of him, and beliefs about him. So, it didn't prevent it from ever happening, but he had somewhat of a buffer, as well as when those things happen, I had conversations with him about why might they have a lesser opinion of you and different things like that. So yeah, so he definitely had an awareness from earlier on.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 32:59
Part of what I'm really looking forward to us talking about in a future episode is this piece around this buffer, and thinking about the ways that we now are able to create buffers for our children in a way that when you think about ways that our parents’ generation, the buffers that they started trying to create, how it also ended up being harmful buffers in the sense of requiring you to have to overcompensate. Just like, let me give you this information and help you understand the context in which we're operating without being demanding and requiring you to have to perform in ways that I actually am harmful to you. So, it's just this idea around, I want us to talk about this like a parenting level. Because I think that's a piece that can be really useful, certainly for ourselves, but also for folks who are listening. So, I know we are way over time you all. Thank you so much for listening to us, and we look forward to catching you at our next episode. See you all soon.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 34:08
Till the next time. Thanks for listening.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 34:12
If you love what we've had to say, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Dr. Norissa Williams: 34:17
I’m Dr. Norissa, and you can find me on IG at Dr. Norissa Williams.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 34:21
And I'm Dr. Bukky, you can find me on IG at the official Dr. Bukky.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 34:25
You can also stay abreast of our latest offerings on our website radicalremembering.com
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