In this episode, I speak with Thema Bradford about the intersection of Black mental health, autism, and the journey to decolonize therapy. Thema, a licensed mental health counselor and Reiki Master Teacher, shares her experience of entering the field at 45 and how her journey was inspired by her mother.
Thema shares the importance of finding community, embracing one's neurodivergence, and navigating societal systems rooted in patriarchy, white supremacy, and capitalism. Thema introduces her group "Late Pass," which offers a space for Black women discovering their neurodivergence later in life, and shares insights on how to find grace, empowerment, and healing along the way.
This episode is a powerful reminder that we are already whole and deserving of compassion.
Watch Radical Remembering: Season 2 Episode 11 and find inspiration on your journey towards liberation!
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Radical Remembering is a podcast that covers personal growth, self-awareness and awareness of topics at the intersection of mental health, spirituality and self-help. Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey into living out your purpose. Stay tuned for the next episode. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Listen to our next podcast and tell a friend about us.
TRANSCRIPT
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Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist Dr. Norissa Williams. This is a weekly conversation where we explore ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to live liberated. Each episode would leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. As you get settled in for today's episode, please make sure to like and subscribe. And if you've liked what you heard at the end, please share.
Welcome to another episode of Radical Remembering. We have a beautiful guest with us here today. We have Thema Bradford. I can't wait for Thema to be able to share a little bit more about herself, the services she offers, her own personal journeys with liberation, because we don't just have, like, one liberation journey. We have multiple domains of our life.
So we have racial, our, you know, our mental or developmental trajectory, all those kinds of things. And so we'll think about that and talk about that. So I met Thema. It's funny that we're even still in contact because we met a couple years ago when I was still faculty at NYU, and I never had the pleasure of having you in class yet and still years later, we're still in touch. So I think that that is always such a beautiful thing and testament to not only connection, but connections that are supposed to happen when they happen.
So welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so appreciative of this space, of the work that you're doing, of the conversation that you're bringing to our community, and so I'm just I'm so grateful to be here. Good. Good. Good. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Who are you today? Oh, who am I today? That's an interesting question. Let's see. I am a licensed mental health counselor.
I did meet you at NYU when I had made this decision at 45 years old to go to grad school and become somebody's therapist and finally got here. I am in private practice, elevated self counseling, coaching, and consulting. I am a Reiki master teacher, healer, and practitioner, and long time mindset coach even before I went to grad school. So I firmly believe that if you change your mind, you can change your life. But I also operate from a both end space insofar as, yes, we absolutely can change our life.
However, we also live under systems, right, that influence and impact us. And so it's about finding that sweet spot between moving within the systems, but still experiencing autonomy and agency to some extent within those systems. So that's my bag. Oh, I'm somebody mama too. She's at school.
And I'm a cat mama as well, and they're sleeping. So we gonna keep our fingers crossed that they stay up. If they wake up, it won't be the first time we've had a cat on the show. So let's start with elevate itself. Why'd you choose that name, and what does it mean to you?
That was a long time coming. There were a lot of tossing around different ideas. I think that I wanted something that would encompass this idea of vibrational frequency, right, and elevating your vibrational frequency. Because being a Reiki coming from the Reiki field, very much the idea of energy and vibration within the context of healing. So that's kind of where the elevated piece came from.
And then the self piece is, I was saying, all roads lead back to itself. Right? Because things can happen outside of you, but you get to decide how you meet those things. Right? And so all roads ultimately come back to us and how we engage and are in relationship with what's going on.
And then I love the way that it flows. I did that on purpose, elevated self counseling, coaching, and consulting because I'm just, as your therapist, here to help you develop a better relationship with yourself. Right? I'm here to teach someone to fish. I'm not here to give fish.
Right? So elevated self counseling kinda subconsciously, I want people to understand, like, yeah. You are the one that is doing this. Right? You are elevating yourself.
And I'm just sort of along for the ride. So it's, like, low key empowering. And that, I think, was my, like, ulterior, nefarious ulterior motive to empower people. I love it. And I don't I mean, those that hear and those that know know that it's not low key.
It's high key for us to hear it. Right? Mhmm. And I love that too because I think of myself as I don't I don't think of myself like, if you when we say healers or when we say what what have you, I think of the the work of a healer not as though they are doing the healing, but that they're creating the context for the healing, and it takes the individual within that container to enact that healing to be able to do, you know, for themselves. Like, you don't need me.
You need you. So Exactly. Right? Because it's about the difference between theory and practice or, you know, hearing it and embodying it. Right?
And the goal is to get to a space where you embody it so that you're moving forward in the world like that long after I'm gone. Right? And so you don't need me to do that. That's the sort of subliminal message I want people to get. And I love that.
So I also wanna ask another question that came up just now in your introduction. I know, I mean, because I've taught in this master's program. People come back at all different ages, particularly to fields of counseling. There are people who used to be lawyers and marketers and a lot of people who came for marketing. People who were teachers and speech pathologists, and they come at a varied age range.
I know, though, for some people, they'd be like 45 and going back to school. I don't think I can do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm too old for that. How were you liberated?
But I sense that this is your personality anyway. But how were you liberated from that construct of age and what people should do when? It's because age is a construct. You just said it. Right?
Like and and, you know, I had a really I'm I'm not gonna take it all on myself. I had a really powerful example because my mom, she's only 21 years older than me. She had me really young. And I'm her second child. She's 19.
She had my brother. And she, at 39, decided she was gonna go to medical school. So she was a nurse when I was a kid, right, so that she could provide for us and such. And she always had this interest in biology, though. So she made the decision to do a baccalaureate program and work her way up until she got accepted to UMass Western Medical School.
And she was, you know, 39. Right? Mhmm. And that is everybody in her class was not that age. But she pushed through, and she got her medical degree and is board certified and has been working at a med as a medical doctor now for almost 20 years.
Wow. So when I think about higher education or exploring my interests, it was never for me, oh, that that ship has sailed or Yeah. I'm too old or you know? And there are challenges. Don't get me wrong.
Because when you are 45, you're starting to tip into perimenopause possibly, which can lead to brain fog and all those things. So, like, my brain is not maybe as someone who's 25. Right? But in this particular instance, I really felt like it balanced out because I'm able to bring a layer of living wisdom. Right?
Like, lived experience, wisdom to the table with my clients, and they really appreciate that. And so it's almost in my mind, it's, like, flipped because I think to myself, like, if I was 27 years old, I don't know how I would be able to relate to these clients. And I might have to fight for their respect and you know? But being that I'm about to be 50, right, and did this program at 4545, clients come in the room with a level of respect. Right?
Collaborative respect. And so for me, going at 45 was just like, this is what I feel like doing now at this juncture in my life. I am low key over here debating whether to do a PhD program, and I'm just, like, trying to pump the brakes on myself. Like, I don't wanna be 56 years old still studying, but I also really have this interest that I wanna explore. So I feel like age is very much a construct.
I'm always railing about patriarchy, but I feel like patriarchy has hoodwinked us into believing that you are done after a certain age. Right? Especially as a woman. Like, you're done after a certain age. And I just, nah, I could kick rocks.
Like, that's just not that's not my way of thinking. Right. Right. I love that. I love that.
There's so much in there. As being on the other side, I'd rather I mean, I'm not I don't dislike younger students, but I'd rather the students that come in with experience, life experience. And, you know, the conversations are just so much more rich. And I remember, being 3535, and my client was 60, and she was brought in. And they were like, oh, this is doctor Williams.
And she was like, where? Where? Where? And she said, I don't mean to be rude. How old are you?
She's like, you're younger than my last daughter. I was like and I was, you know, we did good work together. In the end, she was like, sorry I was like that in the end. Right? Yeah.
But it was very much like, what are you gonna tell me? Right? Right. Right. And it's ageist in the other direction.
Right? Like, it's ageist in the other direction. And, you know, it's interesting because I've had clients who are older than me, right, in their sixties. And they even like, you know, I so appreciate the fact that, like, you're you're older and you get it. So even menopause.
Right? Like, y'all in during the course of this interview, you might see me faint because it's personal suffering. But even through, like, menopause, I get that. Yeah. Right?
Even though I'm at the beginning, and they might be at the end or be done already, it's an understanding of all of the things that come with that. Right? The brain fog and the hot flashes and the trouble sleeping and all and then how those things can impact your mental health and your emotional well-being. Right? And then there's, you know, the layers around, again, the patriarchy and being an older woman underneath patriarchy and what that means.
Right? And so there's just sort of different dimensions that you get to explore with a client as an older clinician. And, you know, even it's interesting because even when I was in the program, a lot of the younger students really gravitated toward me because they were just like, you know, you are bringing something to the table that is that I don't have yet. Right? And it's really just lived experience.
And I liken it to driving where someone who's 16, you absolutely have your license just like I have my license. But there are certain experiences as a driver that you just have to go through to be a good driver. Right? It's not all textbook. And so there's this, like, living and understanding and learning about relationships and how to be in authentic relationships and how to be in authentic community with people that you kinda don't know or don't learn until you have gone through it, until you've aged through it.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now I'm wondering also about how you infuse. So you're a Reiki master as well as a therapist. Right?
We were not geared even though you were in a program that said wellness, you were not geared even though you were in a program that said wellness, you were not geared to infuse the practices. Right? And so because we're not trained in those kinds of ways, it's like we kinda compartmentalize it, and we're left on our own to kinda figure out how to infuse it. Right? I'm interested in it so I'm adding a 3rd ball to the juggle.
I'm interested in how you infuse those practices and a decolonial approach because I know that that is also very important to you. Mhmm. Mhmm. That's a big one. So in actual practice, right, I will tell my clients in a session, okay.
I'm taking off my little therapist hat right now, and I'm putting on my little Reiki healer hat right now. Right? And I will shift the conversation to help them understand things like the mind body connection. Mhmm. Right?
How does your mind influence your body, and how does the intangible influence the tangible? Because that's really the conversation when you're talking about reiki and mental health. Right? And then also, there's even within the field of psychology, how do you blend psychology has different ways to talk about noetic experiences, right, or sort of the ontological reality. That's how they say it in psychology.
But it's basically the intangible, the things that we can't see, right, that make up and influence our reality. So when I'm blending them together, a lot of times, it's around a conversation that I'm having with clients to help them to see themselves as more than just their physical body, right, or their physical environment and to help them to understand the power that their mind has. Right? And then I'm able to take them into a deeper understanding of themselves as an energetic being. Right?
Because that's actually concrete physics. Right? That we are made of energy, that everything around us is made of energy. Right? And so I think that that's how I blend it.
And then adding the decolonized piece is, like, be open to this idea because colonialism is what divested us Mhmm. Of this idea. Right? Of this idea that we are more than just our physical bodies, that we are more than just our physical environments, that we there is more than what we just see in front of us. Right?
Like, we only see this much of the electromagnetic spectrum, and this is physics. All of this is out here that gets ignored. Right? And so Mhmm. Encouraging clients to step beyond this western way of pathologizing, categorizing, classifying.
If you enjoy listening to Radical Remembering and would love to get the season dropped before everyone else, If you want exclusive invites to live and virtual events and could benefit from daily liberation inspiration, like affirmations, thought provoking questions, and daily guidance, then download our free app living liberated in the app store or on Google Play. You can also find the link below in the description box. I mean, knowledge is great, and I'm grateful. Right? I'm super grateful for a lot of the things that have, I personally think, been relearned.
Right? But that being said, it doesn't account for everything. Yeah. Right? And it very much, you know, it, again, divests us from what I feel like is the most important part of ourselves, which is this inherent connection that we have to spirit.
Right? And then that's where I bring back in the Reiki to talk about the chakras and your crown chakra, right, which is your connection to source. And we have forgotten. A lot of people have just forgotten that they're connected to the source. No one has ever disconnected.
Right? But it's very easy in this society, in western society, that tells you I have a running joke, right, that says, I'm not supposed to be self centered. So am I supposed to be you centered, or what would what's supposed to be centered in there if not myself? Right? And, you know, there are different sort of belief systems around that would say, oh, well, you know, my creator is supposed to be centered there.
And then we're getting into, well, aren't you your creator? Like, didn't your creator make you even right? And so it's just like this when you get into the weeds of it, a lot of that sort of colonized way of thinking really does break down. Right? Because it doesn't account for so much of the human experience.
It loves to operate in the binary of either or. Right? When there's so much more nuance and gray area to things. Even, you know, biology. Right?
It says male and female, and it's like, yeah. Biology doesn't really say that. Right? Nature didn't really do that. And it's like and so so much of the idea of colonization plays into pathology.
And I think once I'm able to educate my clients and show them the ways that they're being pathologized, right, then they open up a little more. And they're able to say, you know, yeah. I don't I don't because I'm like, if you're depressed, I have a phrase, and I'm announcing it here. Yay. I posted it last year, but I'm announcing it here.
And I call it depression capitalia. Right? And once you have realized that your depression could potentially be linked to this rat race at this place in your life, you should be here. You should own your house. You should be married.
You should have kids. You should have this. You should have that. And part of their depression is coming from feeling less than because they don't, then I'm able to really open up the conversation around, let's think about this differently. Right?
Because if you have had a traumatic experience in your life and you're depressed, that makes sense to me. Right? Like, it's just like if you are, you know, black and brown in this country, and you are driving, and you see lights flashing, and you get anxious, that makes sense to me. So removing this idea that you shouldn't be depressed, you shouldn't feel this, you shouldn't feel that, No. Frankly, there are plenty of things in this world and in this society in particular that depress you, that give you anxiety, that can traumatize you.
And all of that is not in your head. Yeah. Right? It's not in your head. And I feel like, you know, individualism and white supremacy loves to make it feel like it's you.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Right? And, I mean, yeah, I guess to an extent. Right?
But it's also not an either or. It's not the binary. It's both and. It is you, and it's also the patriarchy and the white supremacy and it right? And I call them the 3 Spider Mans.
I don't know if you've seen the meme of the 3 Spider Mans where they're all pointing at each other because they're all the same. Right? So my 3 Spider Mans are patriarchy, capitalism, and white supremacy. They're all the same. They're all operating to make people feel less than what they are, which are divine beings.
Right? And so that's how I kind of blend it all together. I love it. I love it. And one of the things, so one of the things that I do say when I teach the trauma class too, I ask 2 fundamental questions from the beginning, which is very aligned with what you're saying.
Does the dysfunction lie within the individual or within the system? Right? And so a lot of times, we're treating the individual when we should be treating or ameliorating the harms of the system. And then the second question is, oh, what was that second question? The second question, I always say, does the dysfunction lie within?
Oh, where I I say that we're adapting to a maladaptive system. Right? So, you know, you're well, the system is sick. You're adapting to a maladaptive system. Like, these are these unnatural distortions to which we are accommodating, and so we have the result of what feels like this occluded mental illness in our body.
You know? Exactly. Exactly. And I was just looking at something about that yesterday, Right? We Right?
There's this young black woman on TikTok, and she did this video, and it was just great. She was like, so let me get this straight. I'm supposed to eat right, go to the gym, do this, do that, work, do self care, go on vacation. Like, all I mean, the list that she named is not possible. Right?
It's not possible. And so this idea of, I would even say, maladaptive expectation, right, of who you are supposed to be and what you're supposed to be doing, I feel like are so harmful and contribute so much to the rise of anxiety and depression that we see in the west. Right? And it's so interesting to me that the west is lauded as the pinnacle or the ideal. Right?
Meanwhile, the rates of depression, anxiety are skyrocketing. Right? Are, like, through the roof because nobody's happy. You know what I mean? Nobody's happy.
And it's because I feel like we have set up these sort of unattainable goals, frankly. Right? So, yeah, 1000% agree with that. 1000%. And so in many ways, what I'm hearing too is, like, your work is being, like, a liberation guide, if we speak in spiritual terms, an ascension guide, to be able to to move away from and shed the layers.
So another thing that I'm interested in, because I remember that this was an important point of connection between you and I when we first met. And, again, I'm like, how did this even come up in conversation? You were like you were talking about autism, and you sent me a test too. I don't know how we got to talk about it, but I know something that is important to you is well, something that is a significant part of your journey is becoming aware later in life that you were actually, you know, experiencing autism in some form or another. Would you like to speak to that?
Yes. Oh my gosh. Everything changed. Everything changed. And it was so interesting because I had a conversation with my own therapist.
Right? And I said to her I said, you know, I have anxiety because I feel like there's a class that everybody else took that I knew. Right? And then a week later, I was looking up ADHD for a client, because she, who was in her fifties, had been told she had ADHD as a kid, but had never had it addressed by her parents. So we were talking about it and exploring the idea that, yeah, maybe you do have ADHD, and how can you support yourself?
And in the process of doing that research, I saw myself. Right? And I was like, well, this is interesting. You know? And then learned more about it, had to experience the gatekeeping of the medical industrial complex because if you don't have health insurance that covers an assessment, the assessments are like I think they quoted me a price of $6,000 or something insane.
And I was like, okay. So I ended up going through a nonprofit to get diagnosed, and so I do have an official diagnosis of mild to moderate on the spectrum. And then in 2022, I was just trying to manage so many moving parts now being, like, graduated and now in the phase of completing the hours to be fully licensed by New York State and being a single parent and all of the things. And I started learning more about ADHD now. Right?
And I was like, And so I met with a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and she diagnosed me with ADHD. And so I'm what they call ADHD. Right? And those years from 2021 I mean, I wanna say I'm still processing, but I'm kind of settled a little bit. But those years from 2021 to 2023 were huge.
It was like Tetris in my brain where I'm thinking about my life, and all of these pieces are falling into place. Right? And I'm like, oh, that's why. You know? And so it was so incredibly liberating to know I wasn't wrong.
Right? That was the key because I had felt so different my whole life. I had felt so just like I'm missing something. There's something that everybody else knows that I don't know, and I don't know why I don't know. Mhmm.
Right? But I don't know. And I always felt out of step. Right? And so finding out that, oh, I am different.
I do process information differently. I am experiencing the world differently. Right? That was so incredibly affirming and liberating. You know?
And I saw a great meme a few weeks ago, and it was, like, before I had my diagnoses because people are always like, well, you don't want labels. And it was like, well, before I had my diagnoses, my labels were weird, lazy. Right? Like, you know, real pejoratives. And it's like, no.
Now I have a label that is explaining all of that. And I'd rather have the label that explains all of that than to just be like, oh, you know, Thema, why are you just sitting there on the couch and you can't move and, you know, you got all this list of things to do and but I I'm and everything in me wants to get up and do them, and I can't. Right? But I didn't know there was a term for that, which is ADHD shutdown, right, or autistic burnout. I didn't understand why I didn't understand why someone would give me instructions, and I had to ask again.
And then I had to ask again because I didn't understand. And now I know, oh, it's because I need you to tell it to me this way so that I understand. Right? So even when I took the mental health counselor's exam, the NCMHCE, I think I was really frustrated with how geared toward neurotypical people it is. And there were so many instances where I had to reread the question and reread the question and reread the question to make sure I was understanding what they were asking me.
And before I had my diagnosis, I would have just felt dumb. I would have just felt stupid. Like, oh, well, I don't get it. Right? And I know I'm not stupid.
You know? But I would have felt like it's me, and I just don't get it. Whereas now I can say, oh, this is written for neurotypical people Mhmm. And not for me. And so, therefore, I don't have to feel like this is on me.
Right? And so it kinda spread around the world. You know? And so it was that I can't even express how liberating and life altering it was. And it inspired me, first of all, now that I know that I'm a black woman who is just now finding out this later in life.
I was 47 when I found out. Right? And I was like, oh, so now when I work with black women, I can almost spot it in them. Right? And I won't say anything unless they start really beating up on themselves about their inability to do something or the challenges that they're facing.
And they're internalizing that as a reflection on them, and it's impacting their self esteem. And at that point, I will say, well, have you thought of this? Maybe this might be a thing. Right? And then I start talking to them about it, and they're like, that's me.
And it's like this light bulb goes off. Right? And so it inspired me to launch a group. It's called Latecast. Love it.
And it's a group that I launched back in June of 2024. And it really is around finding community. Right? Because it's for black women and finding community of people who reflect you, but also, excuse me, helping you to process all of the emotions that come up. Right?
Because it's not just feelings of liberation and joy of finally finding out. There's grief for all of the time that you've lost. Right? There's anger because how did nobody catch this? Mhmm.
You know? How did the adults in my life not not catch this and support me? Liberation is 100% about being in right relationship with our power. It's so easy from day to day to disconnect from our source and forget who we really are. On our app, Living Liberated, we have the tools to keep you plugged in.
You'll find a library of affirmations, guided meditations, guided journeys, and tapping sequences to keep you in a state of alignment with who you really are. Topics range from self love, healthy relationships, activating our DNA, to guided journeys with your ancestors. Download our free app, living liberated, and start your free 7 day trial now in the app store or Google play. You can also find the link for Plugged In in the description box below. And so there's a full spectrum of emotions that can come with finding out later in life that this is how your brain works.
Right? And, you know, I was thinking about it when you were talking earlier about the container. Right? It's like there's the processing of you still gotta live in this container. Right?
And yes, now you know you're different, but the container is still the same, you know? And so how do you know, knowing that you have this diagnosis or knowing that your brain operates this way, moving within this same container that's going to marginalize you, that's going to, you know, cater to a neurotypical brain? How do you move within that? And then at that point, I'm able to offer tips and tools and life hacks and, you know, the number one requirement that I have for all my clients, but especially my neurodivergent clients, is grace. Like, how do you give yourself grace?
How do you extend yourself the compassion, right, that, you know, frankly, it's not my fault that the container is built this way. Right? And so I have to be really gentle with myself and not beat up myself when I'm not able to meet certain expectations that are coming from the container because, again, those expectations are probably maladaptive because they're rooted in white supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, and colonization. So it's like it's really a reframing, I think, of what it means to be black, be a woman, and on top of that, be processing the world differently. Mhmm.
Mhmm. That's a lot. It's a whole lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.
Yep. And so what's glaring to me too also is just this conversation of liberation and multisystemic liberation. Right? Multilevel, I should say. Multisystemic, multilevel liberation.
Right? So we can in intrapersonally begin to experience liberation, which it sounds like, okay. After I begin to feel affirmed and validated in my own experience, then I can be able to move about the world differently, which can trickle up into my interpersonal relationships. Because now I know how to engage a little bit differently in ways that suit me as well as suit the other. Right?
But we still have institutional and ideological oppression and systems that are shaping our everyday existence. Right? And so as we think about these things and we think about what liberation is, like, as long as the if if that institution and and those cultural norms and practices of those institutional institution only favor, you know, one specific kind of people or one group of people, whether that's white male, middle class, and all those kinds of things, there will always be people that are marginalized and experiencing harm from the system. There's a reading years ago that was assigned in one of the classes that I was teaching. I was teaching in an educational department at one point in time, and it was talking about the universal design for learning.
Right? So if we're thinking from the beginning about the many, right, thinking pluralistically, then we don't have these problems. So for and the example that they use is, like, if we had the ramp on the sidewalk that was created for people with wheelchairs, right, for accessibility. It benefits people on skateboards, roller skates, people with flares. Exactly.
Crutches. So it benefits so many, even those we do not intend. So we created systems with fairness, like, just fairness in mind, how many people would benefit and may not experience. Right? So one thing that for example, if we were talking about living in a world, right, where okay.
I'll use myself as an example. Right? So at one point, I was photosensitive. Right? So with autoimmune disease, manifestations of lupus, and all those kinds of things.
Right? And so many, oh my god, where's my brain going? I'm talking about hearing the pause. Any lights with UV, even the computer would make me, like, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick. Right?
And so even I would walk into a Walmart and wanna feel like I had to vomit because the lights on top, you know, when I was in, like Right. Crazy flare state. And so is it that I am I disabled, or is the environment is disabling? Right? So because of my office at NYU, when I was there, the lights were on, they pointed up, then they had this kind of filter that pointed up.
I didn't get sick there. And it was the same light, but it was made for universal design. Right? So the context. So the frustration that we then internalize, like, it must be me when I'm reading these test items, and I'm like, I can't get it.
It must be me. Could be eliminated if we had if we were thinking with universal design in mind. Right? And so as we think about liberation, we have to think about it multilevel and multisystemic. I also had an additional thought, and I would like to hear what you think about this as well.
I don't know. There was a point in time where I think that I might have thought more aligned, like, teaching people how to accommodate to the system. Right? Mhmm. And so one, I like to think about this visual from Melissa Harris Perry in her book, Sister Citizen.
She said, we've all been standing sideways in a tilted house. Right? So we have been accommodating the distortion. And so everybody that comes in is like, okay. We gotta tilt sideways for this tilted house to accommodate this distortion.
Right? I think about that when I think about raising a black child, a black boy. Like, am I gonna tell him not to wear a hoodie and accommodate the distortion? Am I giving or am I going to tell them how to assimilate into a dysfunctional environment, or am I gonna teach him how to dismantle that environment? Right?
Right. And so when I think about liberation and counseling and therapy, then I also have to add the element of advocacy, sociopolitical action. Action. Like, how do you create change within those systems? Because it then has the effect of increasing your agency and your autonomy and making you feel powerful as though you can impact change.
Right? So whether or not it happens is not as consequential as it is to feel as though you can impact change or that you can act in such a way that changes, like, your circumstances. Wondering what you think about that. So 2 things are coming to mind. The first is I saw something maybe at the end of last year, and it was about the shortest man in the world.
Right? And he is from some village in, like, Afghanistan or Pakistan. Right? But what struck me was that some European journalist photographer went over there, found him. When they found him, he's literally a foot tall.
K? When they found him, he was living his best life. Maybe not the best life because I remember the desert. Right? Right.
But he's living his life. And the reason he was living his life was because the village had built ramps for him to get around. So he didn't have to ask for help. He didn't have to feel as if he was burdening people by asking for help. He was out there just living his life.
Right? And I was just like, but where are the civilized ones? And they're uncivil right? Like, it was just right? Right.
And that's what we're talking about when we talk about accommodation and the container, right, and the universal mind. It's like, why are we not building things that can accommodate everybody so they don't have to feel that way? Right? So that's the first thing that comes to mind. And then the second thing is my nefarious plan to save the world, right, is the ripple effect.
Yeah. Right? Because it is a big task. Right? It's a big ask to say, you know, go from the micro level of how you feel and impact the macro and the mezzo level.
Right? Like, it's a big ask. And I used to live in that ask where I was just like, I gotta change the world and you know? And now I change. I try to change the hearts of, like, one person at a time. Right?
And I try to, like, build people up enough so they can go and build up the next person. Because I feel like if I can create enough ripples that way, then eventually, it's gonna ripple up the food chain. Right? Because the research shows that, you know, we always there's the 3 to 1 negativity bias. Right?
And that's why negativity spreads the way it does, and it's very viral. But there's research that shows that, like, joy and kindness are also viral. And you can do something kind for someone, which is also viral. And you can do something kind for someone, and they will pay that forward up to, I think, 4 or 5 days after they've left you. Right?
And so my way of moving through is, like, I'm gonna do this ripple effect. I'm gonna try to support the people within my sphere of influence. Right? Because the other piece is if you do get too big, you can start to feel helpless. You can start to feel overwhelmed.
You can start to feel like, you know, well, what's the point? Right? And I've absolutely, full transparency, had those moments also. You know? But then I drill down.
I come back down to that micro level of saying, let me teach my child. Right? My child will tell you all about the patriarchy. She's 9a half, and she will tell you all about the patriarchy and white supremacy and capitalism and, like, how they are impacting us. And then if I can just help my clients to feel better and and feel better about their place in the world and feel empowered about their ability to affect change in their world, right, then I feel like at some point, you know, we're all to bring it back to energy, we're all walking through each other's auras anyway.
Mhmm. So if those auras can be healed a little bit more, if we can be you know, eventually, our worlds will intersect. Yeah. Right? Eventually, they will come together.
And if enough people, to your analogy or to Melissa Harris Perry's analogy of the leaning house, if enough people step into the house and they decide they're not going to lean, they're gonna stand straight up, eventually, the house is gonna stand straight up. Right? But if everybody keeps right? If everybody keeps coming into the house and we all just say, okay. Well, let me go.
Let me go eventually, the house will tip over. Right? Because it's just the nature of how that works. So I hope that I'm answering your question, but I wanna say that I go with this idea of the ripple effect, and then I just give it up to the creator and the divine and say, you know, I'm gonna do my part to the best of my ability, and my part is empowering people to understand that they can absolutely affect change, that they can absolutely impact, at the very least, the others around them. Right?
And, you know, we make up society. Right? Each and every one of us as individuals makes up society. So at some point, my hope is that we all will take responsibility for that and accountability for that and really lean into effecting change in the ways that we can. Yeah.
Right? And I feel like that's all we're ever asked. You know? It doesn't have to be there are people like Oprah or, you know, pick somebody else, right, that will affect change on bigger scales. K?
And that's maybe what they came here for. But, like, that doesn't have to be each and every one of us. It doesn't have to be this huge thing. It can be something as simple as being in community with your neighbors. Mhmm.
Right? And, like, you know, being in community with their children and making sure their children are safe as much as my child is safe. Right? Or, you know, being in community and supporting my girlfriends, right, as they want to maybe go to grad school at 45. Right?
So it's just the idea of yeah. The way that things have been done, it hasn't served us. It hasn't healed us. It hasn't supported us. And so it's just time to do something different.
And I felt that way for a long time, but I feel like other people are coming along now. Right? Because they're realizing that, no. This doesn't this isn't gonna work. This isn't sustainable.
You know? My hope was COVID would be this big wake up call for everybody, but here we are. Right? And it's just like so, yeah, I just want to operate with that lens of, a, I'm infinitely more powerful than I probably realized. Mhmm.
Right? Because we have very lasting effects, and our energy goes out. And then, b, if I can shift and reframe for 1 person Yeah. Then they will hopefully go forth and do that for somebody else. Yeah.
I hold a similar worldview in the sense that I think that the individual is the collective and the collective is the individual. So what Exactly. I mean, literally, inside the body is a whole ecosystem, and that ecosystem is representative of the ecosystem that exists in the outer world as well because we are 1 and the same. Right? And so when we are experiencing harmony internally, we are radiating that out in our auras, like you said, and it is affecting the collective 100%.
And, also, just to put it in context, when I was speaking about, like, activism and and and multilevel effects, I wasn't necessarily speaking about, like, the Oprah's or the whatever. So I'm speaking about when you're at work and they're doing something oppressive, advocating for yourself, or even as something as small as they have an office that accommodates so, for example, with my autoimmune issues, thank god, I am not, symptomatic for a couple years now because I again, when we talk about managing environments, once I've managed environments and left toxic toxic systems, I've been alright. Right? Yeah. But having been socialized as a black woman in this world, it wasn't the norm for me to reach out for help.
Right? So I definitely a point of activism for myself was calling the office of disabilities or whatever and finding out, what do you have for me? They were they were but COVID hit, so I never got it. But they were gonna supply me with this anti fatigue mat for underneath my desk. They were you know, there were a bunch of resources that were available to me free.
Right? So but had I not acted to receive acted in my own agency to be received, then we have systems where that is nonexistent. Right? Because I've taught at a school before where there was intentional. That person is not there anymore.
I'm rolling my eyes hard at what my experience has been. But when they were putting me there they knew that I had health issues, autoimmune health issues, and then I had a son who was 8 years old at the time. Right? And they were putting me on, like, I would put me on to teach classes that end at 9 o'clock, but also to start my day with meetings at 9 o'clock. That's 12 hours.
I'm a single mother. Like, what are you doing? Right? And, of course not of course, but when I advocated for myself because of their own limitations as a human being, they they you know? And because of the ways in which they were hoarding power and had a distorted relationship with power, they, you know, I was targeted, which is how you ended up meeting me.
This is why I ended up at NYU. But the point of the story is that agency and I think and there's something that you said in there. I think that we should only be assessing, is this more than I can give at any given moment? Yeah. Do I have the resources to continue this fight?
And if you do, push and give those resources because you're affecting change for somebody else. I had heard and I don't know how true this is, but I had heard Monique I don't know how true what Monique was saying, the comedian actress. She had said that she had heard Oprah not Oprah. Whoopi Goldberg. So this is the part that I'm not sure how true it is.
I'm so I don't like to be, like, hearsay, and I don't really know how true it is. But she had said that she had reached out, but this is an interview that you could see, like, on YouTube or everywhere anywhere. She had reached out and, or somehow she heard Whoopi saying, like, girl, just take, you know, just take the money and worry about yourself. Right? Don't because she was at a point where she Monique was like, no.
If I accept this, then that's gonna be what everybody else behind me accepts. Yeah. And she was like and I'm thinking, like, if you had if Whoopi had not accepted this, I wouldn't have to be here. You know what I mean? So I also think it's the it's it's in the action.
It's in our daily lives. It's in the love that I share because also inherent in what you're saying is that the answer is coming. The answer is coming back home to self, coming back home to each other, these practices that were indigenous and natural to us that are now distorted in these oppressive systems. But also to the extent that you are available, it serves the individual who is being harmed by the oppressive system to act in ways that to, you know, and to the extent that they are capable in their agency to be able to impact change. So I'm gonna ask a few things, one 2 things really before we go.
So if somebody is like you, right, you said 47 is when you begin to open, you know, like, oh my god, you know, mind blowing moment and feel really firm. What are some symptoms? Because somebody's listening who's like, wait. Wait. Wait.
Wait. Do I have ADHD? Wait. Wait. Wait.
Wait. So let's see. Where do I start? For girls, right, there's in general, neurodivergent people mask. Right?
And the masking is around getting along in systems that are not built for us. Right? But for girls, they learn to mask socially. Okay? And that's then what leads to these higher rates of anxiety and depression.
And neurodivergent people actually have the suicide rate is, like, 3 times what neurotypical people are. Right? And it's because there's a suppression that takes place because you don't know what the social cues are or you don't get social context. Right? So for me, there was kind of this feeling of I'm not in on the joke.
Yeah. There's a joke happening, and I'm sure it's funny. Right? But I'm not, I don't, I don't get it. You know?
So any sort of struggling with social cues, social contexts, there's the physical symptoms. I just went to the Juneteenth food festival at Weeksville Heritage Center in Brooklyn. And I'm standing in line, and there's a family in front of me. And I could tell the older daughter was autistic, But what struck me was the toe walking. Right?
So a lot of times, children that walk on their toes and her feet were, like, rigid. K? And so that is a big, huge sort of thing when you see the kids walking on their toes. If you find that you are sensitive, sensory processing challenges. Right?
So I am someone that cannot abide repetitive sounds. So if there's a faucet dripping, if there's, like, something hammering and it's not just, oh, I wish that would stop. It's not just that. I can't think or focus as long as that is happening. Right?
And so it's an intensity level. And that's just those for, like, more autism. And then ADHD would be around procrastination. Right? Executive functioning challenges.
So organization. You know? I also saw a great presentation about it because all of this is very much becoming a conversation on social media, and that's where a lot of people are self diagnosing. And that's acceptable in the neurodivergent community because there's the gatekeeping of the medical industrial complex. So trying to get a diagnosis can be so challenging, and the assessments are normed for white boys and college students.
Right? And so if you it might not even catch you. Okay? So they're asking you about lining up your your trains. Right?
Because that's the perception of autism. And, you know, I suspect that my daughter might be on the spectrum because she used to light up her little, you know, Little People toys. Like, she will have a whole conga line going down the whole living room. Right? So there's sort of, the traits that are expected, but then there's, what struck me was I used to tell all my ex partners that I don't catch hints.
I used to date a producer, and I would tell him, I love your music, but it's the rhythm of the words that move me. Right? And so there's just sort of, like, this quirkiness and overall sense of feeling different. Right? And then with ADHD, again, with the executive functioning, and then there's what's a good example of a ADHD trait.
You can have excellent grades. You can have spreadsheets for your clients. You can do all of those things and still have 4 bags of laundry sitting on the floor and a sink full of dishes. Right? So it will present differently for everybody.
There will be some people that's why we don't use the term Asperger's anymore. I won't go on record of saying that. We do not describe it as Asperger's anymore because Asperger was a Nazi. K? So we don't invoke him anymore.
And this idea of high functioning and low functioning is also up for debate because neurodivergent people will be high functioning in some areas and low functioning in other areas. Right? So, for example, I believe I have a taste of dyscalculia. So when I'm looking at numbers, I will get this intuitive sense, but I I if I stare at it for too long, I just get really confused. So that's sort of where numbers kinda don't make sense to you.
Right? And then there's dyslexia, and those run concurrently as well. And so the overall, I think, idea of figuring out if you are neurodivergent with autism or ADHD is you know yourself better than anybody. You really do. You might not be a 100 percent honest with yourself all the time, but you know yourself better than anybody.
Right? So I just happen to have been someone who was very honest with myself. Okay? And so when I would say I feel out of sorts, I don't feel like I belong, I I I'm able to name those things. But that's not to say that other people aren't feeling those things and just sort of squashing it down.
Yeah. Right? And so I think that if you feel that there's something off, you feel like this society is exhausting because that's really it is incredibly exhausting to be neurodivergent in this world. Right? And literally neurodivergent people, autistic people need more sleep.
Like, that's part of the research. So if you find you are exhausted, you come home from work and you are sitting like a bump on a log. Or you come home from work and, you know, your partner does one little thing and you're losing. Right? Restraint collapse.
That's the name for it. You have restrained yourself all day to try to fit in, to get along, and now you've come home and you just don't have any more to give. Right? So there are a lot of the diagnostic criteria that you will find in the DSM are right. Right?
But it's also been pulled a lot from the stereotypical populations that we expect to have to be neurodivergent. So that's basically white boys. Right? So digging a little deeper and if you're someone who for example, I did not realize that everybody did not rehearse in their head before they had conversations. I thought everybody did that.
Mhmm. Come to find out, that's not the case. Some people are really just showing up the patients and telling them. Right? And me, I've, like, got my whole script ready.
You know what I mean? And so, like, if you find that you're doing these little things, k, it might be worth it to examine. Okay? Now that being said, social anxiety is a very real thing. That doesn't mean that you have autism or ADHD.
Okay? So I do think it's important at some point to have sit down with a mental health professional, someone that can help you to really suss it out and examine your symptoms and see if those to what extent those symptoms are aligning with you being neurodivergent. But that being said, again, we know ourselves better than anybody else. And I feel like I read a great article a couple years ago that said that the rise of neurodivergence, people understanding that they're neurodivergent, is the first shot across the bow of classism. Mhmm.
Because for a very long time, neurodivergent people were made to believe that they were like, one here, maybe one there. You know, you're abnormal. Right? But now everybody's finding each other online. We're seeing how many of us there are, and it's like, oh, we've all been hoodwinked about this.
Mhmm. So if we've been hoodwinked about this, what else have we been hoodwinked about? Mhmm. Right? And so it's making people really start to question these social constructs around normality, right, around what is considered normal.
And I love to tell people there's 2 last things I just wanna say about neurodivergence before we jump off. So to the best of my knowledge, the term neurodivergence was coined by a Black woman. I forget her name. Forgive me. But she was coined that term by a Black woman.
And that is to describe just the diversity of the human brain. Right? Neurodivergent was coined by a white woman who has gone on record to say she wishes that she didn't coin that term. Because as soon as you say neurodivergent, the question is diverging from what. Right?
And then it follows, oh, diverging from this norm that has been set, but who set the norm? Mhmm. Right? So she has said she would rather see more of an anthropological model where examining different cultures because it just in our culture in the west, it's neurodivergent, but that doesn't mean that's the case with everybody. Right?
So there was that point. I actually forgot my second point because I have ADHD. So this is where we are. And you see how easily I said that. Right?
Like, I don't have I don't operate from a space of shame with it. I speak about it openly because I really, really, really wanna dispel the myths around it, what it looks like, how it shows up for people. Right? So I very openly talk about being neurodivergent, and my hope is that we will gravitate away from that term. There is a researcher I follow online, and they have coined the term neuro indigenous, which I like.
Right? Oh, this is what I was gonna say. Nature trends toward diversity. Mhmm. Right?
Because of the survival of the species. It trends toward so we have trees, and we have all kinds of trees. We have fish. We have all kinds of fish. Right?
But somehow nature only made one kind of brain, just one, and that doesn't make any sense. It's completely illogical when you think about it like that. The more logical belief is, oh, yes. And nature created all kinds of brains too. Mhmm.
Right? And then there is growing research. This tickled me so much. There's growing research that autistic people helped humanity survive the ice age because we pay such close attention to detail. Right?
And that ADHD people help push humanity forward because of the impulsivity. Because we are the risk takers that throw care to the wind and just do things. Right? And it's a problem now because we've created a society where we tell students you gotta sit still for x amount of hours and just pay attention. Right?
Whereas if we created a society where we played toward people's strength, it would look completely different. Mhmm. Right? So that's where I will land my plan. I love that.
So the last thought that I have in reference to you saying that is just that what am I saying? I'm thinking 3 things, 3 different ways. So what is this thought of template breakers, right, ADHD, autism, like dismantling the systems as it were and recreating worlds anew. And I think that that is something to, like, really laud and to celebrate. My last and final question, and, of course, we will put this information in the description box. Is it Late Pass, you said? Did you say is it for people of all ages?
Is it for a specific age group? It's for women who have been diagnosed later in life. Okay. Because some of the things that we're gonna process and or we have processed or we do process and talk about are connected to lived experiences. Right?
So, for example, I have a client who did have to be put on a psychiatric hold because of self harm because they had gotten to a point where they couldn't deal anymore. Right? And so their experience coming into this group, you know, seeing themselves reflected in that way, my hope is that they are feeling liberated, that they're feeling like they're reflective. Right? And so, yeah, I wanna say that it's for older women only because of the lived experiences that come with not knowing that you are neurodivergent.
And is it virtual or in person? Absolutely virtual. Yes. Okay. Okay.
That's great. That's great. Sounds good. Yeah. So thank you so so much.
I think that this was enlightening on so many levels. Is there any last thing you wanna say to the audience? Thank you so much, first of all, for having me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the platform and the space, and I love talking to you anyway.
But I think that I would say, you're okay. Mhmm. You're okay. Right? Like, yeah, life happens.
It hurts. We've had some experiences that have left scars, but this is really how I operate with my clients. You're already whole. You just have to remember that. Right?
And the experiences that we have in our lives that hurt, they can help make us forget that. Right? And that speaks to, you know, soul loss and soul retrieval and fracturing and things like that. Right? But that doesn't make you less than, you know, you're okay.
And I feel like when my clients come in and they may not feel okay, and we're not talking about stealing. Right? We're talking about as a being, as a human. You are okay. You're awesome already, and that's the place that I'm operating from.
Right? So my hope is that people will operate from this and maybe it's because I'm a Leo, and Leo's we think we're awesome, but we also think everybody's awesome. Right? And so it's just like if you operate from a space of, yeah, I am okay, and I am awesome. Right?
Then it's a lot harder for water for the rough waters to get in your ship and sink your ship. Mhmm. Okay. So I think that I would want people to know that they're okay. Mhmm.
They're okay. Mhmm. Thank you. Such a beautiful note to end on. Have a great day, and see you all next time.
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