On today’s episode of Radical Remembering, I’m joined by Nicole Yarde, CEO and founder of Black Rewrite, to discuss how writing can be a powerful tool for Black liberation.
Nicole talks about the importance of apologizing to the inner voice we’ve silenced over the years, the process of crafting empowering narratives, and how fear of judgment often holds us back from speaking our truth. She also explains why it’s more crucial than ever to activate Black voices by encouraging writing and sharing our stories.
We also dive into her work with Black Rewrite, an online platform dedicated to showcasing the talents of both emerging and established Black writers.
Listen to Radical Remembering: Season 2 Episode 4 and find inspiration on your journey towards liberation!
Or watch the full episode on my YouTube channel.
Relevant Links
Radical Remembering Podcast
Website: https://radicalremembering.com/
Connect with Nicole Yarde
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/black_rewrite/
Black Rewrite: https://blackrewrite.com/
Connect with Dr. Norissa
Living Liberated app: https://livingliberated.passion.io
Radical Remembering is a podcast that covers personal growth, self-awareness and awareness of topics at the intersection of mental health, spirituality and self-help. Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey into living out your purpose. Stay tuned for the next episode. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Listen to our next podcast and tell a friend about us.
TRANSCRIPT
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Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist Dr. Norissa Williams. This is a weekly conversation where we explore ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to live liberated. Each episode would leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. As you get settled in for today's episode, please make sure to like and subscribe. And if you've liked what you heard at the end, please share.
Welcome to another episode of Wisdom and Wellness. I'm super excited. I'm, like, always excited about every conversation, but I'm super excited about this conversation with Nicole Yarde, who I'm gonna introduce in a couple of seconds. I'm excited because Nicole Yarde and I met just a few years ago. I think it'll be 3 soon.
We met in a professional context, and we've had this great opportunity to continue working professionally, but to develop this really liberating kind of partnership friendship along the way. And so I'm really excited for her to talk about her project. So Nicole is the CEO and founder of Black Rewrite. And so welcome, Nicole. Thank you so much, doctor Williams.
And, yes, we were definitely, like, swipe right on Instagram. That's how we met. Right? We met so funny that we're doing this online, but we met online. And I think we physically met.
Maybe because, like, during COVID, we physically met, like, a year later. That's so true. Yeah. Yeah. But it was, like, the best online relationship ever.
So I am truly grateful for our working relationship and also outside of work, the partnership and the friendship that blossomed. So thank you so much for having me. Thank you. So let's talk about Black Rewrite. What is Black Rewrite?
So Black Rewrite is an online platform for emerging and established writers to showcase their work in a nutshell. It is the platform that is really about elevating black voices through writing. I believe that writing is a form just like any other creative, art work, writing is a form of liberation. Writing is a form of peace for me, particularly. I'm a journalism major.
I've been writing kind of informally all my life, and Black Rewrite came about because I was trying to connect back to who I was and who I am, right? And I've been in education for forever and I want to transition to the things that I love. So I've been in a space where I got to do what I wanted to do, or I had to do. Now I'm in a space where I could do what I want to do. I'm glad we're writing.
It's just an expression of my love. A place that, like I said, I just really wanna be able to have wherever you are on the spectrum of writing. If you're the only thing you've ever written is a grocery list or you've written your 5th book. Right? It's really for a space for writers, black writers particularly, to express themselves.
I like that. I like, I mean, I heard liberation and even what you were saying just there. Like, you did what you had to do. Now you're doing what you wanna do. This sounds really liberating Mhmm.
A really liberating experience. Have you had how you felt, like, venturing more into what feels super aligned for you? Oh my gosh. It feels freeing. It feels as though, like, my soul was sitting on the corner going like, when is she gonna show up?
And then when I finally got there they were like, finally! Right? So it feels so connected. It feels right. It doesn't feel like a chore.
It doesn't feel like a job. I'm at the point of my life where I'm ready to fully transition into, like I said before, the things that I wanna do. So it's very, very freeing. And it's and it's also, like, honoring my voice that was silenced. Like, it's and it's also an apology to the voice that I silenced inside of the brain.
Sorry, girl. I know I put you on the back burner, but I came and I got you now. So it's it's celebration. It's asking for forgiveness for the younger selves. It is reclaiming my voice.
A one that was silenced by numerous reasons, and it is acknowledging all those things and going like, okay. It's me telling myself that I'm ready. Mhmm. And I love it. I love it too.
So how did you silence that voice? I asked because I think that it's an important conversation. But knowing you from the outside, it's all you know, it's like Nicole's voice was ever silent. You know? I can't believe it.
Exactly. And and I think that that that happens a lot, you know, particularly with, I mean, I'm I'm gonna generalize it to say all people of the women of the global majority, but I will narrow into the black woman experience because we you know, we're we're known and seen as strong. Like, we handle the business. I think I think you're multi-talented. I think that you can do so many things so very well, and you're magical, period.
Right? And I also know you as a fierce and strong advocate too. Right? But other people don't always see our internal processes. Right?
So what is that part of you that you like, what did that feel like internally to have silenced your voice, and why did you silence it? It felt, why did it feel like just so much my voice? It felt like captivity. Mhmm. Felt it didn't feel authentic, but I have to own that it also served me.
Right? I don't think that anything that, whether it's positive or negative, that we are in, doesn't serve some part of us even if it's serving our trauma. Yeah. So I had to acknowledge that it was serving a purpose. It was feeding something even though it wasn't feeding it.
And I had to admit that it was feeding a thing that was allowing me to stay completely complicit. Yeah. And compliant. And what it was was kind of feeding those cultural norms. I grew up, as you can hear from my accent, I'm Caribbean, I'm Bajan, And I grew up in a household hey. Right?
I grew up in a household like many other Caribbean, particularly girls, in a household with boys raised by a grandmother whose mantra is that children are seen and not heard. Mhmm. Mhmm. When you're spoken to, know your place. Mhmm.
Right? So that and then add to that when you go to school, authority is always right. There was absolutely nothing a teacher could say unless it had to be physically egregious. And even then it was questioned what did you do to make this teacher thing that he or she did to you? Right?
So it was very it was then the indoctrination was then added upon when you go to school. You weren't questioning authorities. He didn't talk back. Right? It was very, like, colonial Catholic base.
Yeah. And, you know, all the rules and everything. So you add all of that and then you come for me, my journey coming here to America and they're like, you can talk about it. I'm like, wait what? Yeah.
Right. Seen and not heard, speak when spoken to, right, ignore your place. So all of those, that was my eternal voice Yeah. That kept my external voice silent. And I just didn't want to be out of place, right?
You were raised to be prim and proper and all the things that would deem you as a good woman, as a good student, a good child. And it was all marred by silence. Yeah. And that really, really seeped into my DNA. So now that I'm in a space where I am finding my voice, it's almost like recalculating your DNA, right?
Like turning to Rubik's cube in another way. And it's not done. There's still moments. There's still moments where I have gone to life and my voice has definitely gotten me in trouble, but I'm okay with that. Right?
I'm still a work in progress. But finding my voice and realizing that all the things that I just mentioned, it was again, it was like, oh, that's why you didn't speak up in that meeting. That's why you didn't lean in. That's why you didn't challenge your boss. That's why you went along with the go along.
Yeah. And once I was able to kind of crawl that part and go back to and go to who I am, I was like, I could talk. I have something to say. And it has helped. And for some folks, it's been uncomfortable, but that's okay.
No one's going to die. But this idea of being silenced has now seeped into black rewrite because as I as I do I offer free courses to people of color. The thing that comes up a lot with the students or the folks in my class is fear and fear of people hearing their voices, fear of what the world might think, fear of their thoughts. And part of the work is to kind of call that and get to the root of that and then help them liberate through their writing. Yeah.
So, yeah, that's been a journey in my life so far. That shit he still got some more stuff to say. Well, first of all, I like that last part. Right? Because it's like, as I liberate, I create context for other people to also liberate as well.
And then I also super like, I really resonated with every part of your journey. 1, because as you know, similarities. I'm Caribbean immigrant with Caribbean parents, even though I was raised in America, very much raised in a Caribbean context where the same thing seen and not heard and know your place. So much so that this is also a conversation I was having recently with another friend just yesterday. So much so that a lot of times in context, I won't even have like, the thought doesn't arise anymore.
Right? I had so learned to self silence that, let's say, I'm in a group context, right, a classroom context in the middle of the discussion, you know, where everybody's, like, raising their hands and talking in different ways and it's not to say I'm not intelligent. I think I'm intelligent. Right? But it doesn't even rise anymore, so the impulse doesn't even rise for me to act on.
Right? And I had also not only become complicit, but Frantz Fanon calls it auto oppression where the police are without becoming the oppressor within. So nobody had to tell me to shut up. Nobody had to tell me to be quiet. I had so internalized what my place is in this social dynamic that I began to do that.
And I am thinking specifically, I remember and I've I've thought this thought in many contexts. Right? But I remember being in, like, a faculty meeting at NYU, and this guy had started well after me, a year or 2 after me. In what seemed to me because it always comes and seems logical. It seems like, oh, it's wise to get into an environment.
You have to learn the players and everybody. I think that some of that is feminism wisdom. Yeah. Some of that is my personality. I’m Cancer.
I'm like, I'm in my shell until and but some of that is the way in which I was colonized. Right? So he came in, white male, and he's, like, automatically talking. I was like, you're, like, 2 minutes in this role. Like, why are you this free?
And I also was judging him against the way that I had been oppressed and had and and hadn't and thought of it as wisdom as opposed to realizing that it's my internalized oppression because I'm, like, supposed to be quiet. And I have done that in other contexts too. Like, why are you coming in here all loud? You don't know anybody here. Like, you're supposed to be able to Right.
Right. Right. Dessert and not be all out there with your voice and all those kinds of things. So I like how you articulated that, and I also like to label that as we begin to think about in what ways am I not liberated and as we try to divide ourselves because it seems so natural. Right?
Yes. That we can begin to think that it is ourselves, That it is just my personality. I'm just not one to I'm shy. Exactly. Oh, wait.
Now you're making fun of me because I've got that, and you're like, no. You're not. But I love that. One thing I also love about Black Rewrite and and the ways in which, like, I've had this awesome opportunity, audience, to be in at least, I think, 2 sessions of your courses. And, one thing that stuck out with me in the write up of the event was about where we are in history in the black voice being trying to be silenced in regards to, like, books and what's read and what is allowed in school libraries and different things like that.
And you said that it's a really important time for us to activate our voice and our writing. Can you say a little bit more about that? Sure. So that is what you just hit on is literally, like, the core not like, but the crux of the mission of black rewrite. Yes, we want to be able to put new and established writers on a platform.
But the reason behind that is because of the erasure, the systematic, unapologetic, public, no whole bars erasure of black history from every part of education. We literally just yesterday had a Republican candidate who's running for president who says America does not have racism. It never existed in America. Miss Nikki Haley. The lady who's an Indian but changed her name to Nikki.
Right? So racism does not exist in America. Like, that's his statement that is being made by someone who wants to be the president of our country. Like, black people lynch themselves, but that's another show for another day. That's right.
But it is bold statements like those that are put on an international platform that was the thinking behind black rewrite. It is a space that my thinking was and still is that for every Zora Neale Hurston, for every Toni Morrison, for every, Alex Haley that they take off of the shelves, we are going to put 10 or 20 more Black folks on the shelf. Because 10, 20 years from now, they should be reading about Dr. Norissa Williams because they're trying to take off James Baldwin. So if I can be a dot in that line, in that lineage, right, in that tapestry of kind of emancipation and putting black writers back on, then that's my contribution to it is black rewrite.
It's fighting back against folks who do not want our history to be told. If you enjoy listening to Radical Remembering and would love to get the season dropped before everyone else, if you want exclusive invites to live and virtual events and could benefit from daily liberation inspiration, like affirmations, thought provoking questions, and daily guidance, then download our free app, Living Liberated, in the App Store or on Google Play. You can also find the link below in the description box. And if you're gonna take away our history, we're gonna continue to make it. So part of the classes and part of Black Rewrite when I'm just talking to the students is like, I really don't care what you write.
You could publish a cookbook about how to make flour. I don't like, write the alphabet backwards, whatever it is, especially in this day and age where they're so many ways that you can self publish. Publish. We have to be just as intentional. Actually more intentional we have to be even more systematic, more unapologetic about putting Black writers on the shelves as they are in putting them off.
And that's my contribution to this movement. It's very, very passionate to me. Again, I grew up in Barbados, a, you know, a system that is still colonized, but I it didn't it did and it didn't stop me from learning about certain things. When it it's only when I came to America that I understood and read and learn about the huge historical impact that my little island had on the slave trade. Like how we were part of that, right?
It wasn't really taught back in my day. Not in a real authentic, culturally responsive way. Yeah. Like, yeah, they had some slaves, they were freed, here's, you have your day. But it was through books.
Right? It was through reading. It was through education that I began to appreciate my little island even more and understand the system. It was through Toni Morrison, even though I remember at 21 trying to read Power Days, I'm going, like, Toni, I don't know when you're dreaming or when you're awake. Have you ever read Toni Morrison's book, you know, that she switches out in and out?
And it took me forever to read, but just reading it was amazing. Reading Malcolm X was amazing. And it is really ingrained in me and understood helped me understand who I was. And then going to, like, reading, Sir Hilary Beckles from or to Barbados who's just an amazing author and and just understanding more about my culture. So books for me were a way to get home when my passport expired, right, or when I couldn't get on that flight.
That was a way for me to connect, And it was very liberating. Yeah. So when I you know, Black and White came about, I wanted to be able to get that same feeling. But more importantly, it is my contribution to folks trying to erase like, how dare you try to erase who we are? And the more black folks that I could get out there and encouraged to write and help them break through their barriers, help them find their voice, help them overcome, the procrastination and all the barriers that tell them that they shouldn't.
That is if I leave the Earth, that will be my legacy. That someone went through our classes. Someone went through the Lottery, right, and decided I'm gonna put a book on the shelf. I love it. Yeah.
You know what I love about it too? Well, first of all, there was something that you said. I hope that is already a meme. You said, you know, for every book that they try to take off, we wanna put 10. You have you have you already You know what?
Okay. Exactly. And so another thing that I that I that I'm hearing also and and really, really valuing is that well, 1, this is counterstorian too. We're also telling our stories rather than having our stories to be told for us because these sensationalized versions of what blackness is Mhmm. Is that one, they tell a unidimensional story of who we are.
Right? This it's a mono we're a monolith and all those kinds of things. And another thing, I actually just saw it. We didn't even intend to see it, but we just saw American fiction. And have you seen the commercial? I've seen the commercials, but I definitely have to watch it.
Worth seeing in this conversation. Okay. It's about an author who is writing books, and they're, you know, trying to fit him into black black, literature. And he's like, what? It's about philosophy.
And, you know, it's really a good, social commentary and worth viewing. Right? Mhmm. But another thing that I wanted to about that last point, like this, filling out who we are. Right?
We're not just a monolith. Right? But it also brings me back to this conversation that I saw between Tyler Perry and Spike Lee some years ago. Right? And in the conversation because, you know, there are a bunch of people who are like, why is Tyler Perry telling these stories, and why are they always depicting the same you know?
And I was very much feeling like that too. Like, oh god. Here we go. Another Tyler Perry story that you know, this is a lot. You know?
Exactly. And Spike Lee was saying something similar, but Tyler Perry's response was very valid and strong to me. He was like, might it also be that we have different perspectives? You're from the north. Right?
You're from Brooklyn, and I'm from the south. And I'm telling southern stories, and you're telling northern stories, northern black stories. And, really, what he was saying too was just that and I'm I'm I'm superimposing some stuff here. Right? The problem is not really that one person is telling this kind of story about the black experience.
It's that we don't have enough people telling stories about the Black experience Correct. So that's why, like, oh, well, this one, we could get so mad at the way that this one is telling the story because then now people are thinking that. And, really, it's because we've been kept out of the system, and we haven't had multiple versions of our narratives to have a full and more multidimensional, more multifaceted understanding of the black experience. And it's very much a condition of oppression, right, and how stories are told and different things. I love the fact that you're challenging us in writing, not only to think of writing as something for our own personal liberation, which you've made a very clear point about how it is, but it's also for our collective liberation.
Good work. Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying. I'm trying.
Yeah. You know? And part of what you said that kind of struck me is that and and this is I'm pretty sure people have been trying, but we tend to do our art through the lens of the white gaze. Mhmm. And I think again, superimposing on Spike Lee.
And I knew there was a conversation between Tyler Perry and Spike Lee. A lot of it was and a lot of the flack that Tyler Perry gets is, like, you know, big Black woman in a dress and kind of over exaggerated. And I was definitely one of those people. I was like, 'Madea' again? Right?
But there are Madias and that was his point. He's like, 'I grew up with Madias and why are we trying to silence her Mhmm. And make her prim and proper, right, or even erase her completely? Through school's eyes And for whom? Because what he's saying is that when that was his mother.
That was his grandmother. So if you take her away, who are they looking at? Yeah. Right. Who are they looking at?
So you're telling me that I can't represent, you know, my family? I can't represent people who I went to church with? How many of you I'm not, of course, from Dal South, but I've gone to church with the hats and the Yeah. Sugar manamels and the, you know, catching the Holy Spirit in the church. Like Right.
You know what I mean? I've had it in the roads or the woman who has the weapon in her purse, we don't mess with it because she is on fire. Yeah. I saw some of my family, some of my friends, some of the people I grew up with. My grandmother was a Medea, right?
God bless her soul, she didn't have a gun but she always carried something in her purse. You know what I mean? And then go to church on Sunday, praise the Lord. But I think it was part of that and part of why sometimes or what I have seen when people really want to write authentically or express themselves authentically to no fault of ours because it's been 400 years, so you can't just do it like that. It's through the lens of white folks.
How are they able to see us? Policing. Right? So I think some of that was Spike Lee's, again, superposed and never met the man. Some of that could have been what he was putting on.
How do you even get us looking stupid if I were to date white people? Right. Right. Right. Right.
Right? And Tyler Perry, in another interview, he said that you know, he's like, keep your Oscars. Keep your white, accolades. That's not who I'm doing it for. I clearly work because he's a multi billionaire.
His movies sell out. So there's an audience for it. And using him as an example, that is liberation. Yeah. Yeah.
To go against everything, right? All the studios, all the people who were like, You can't do this. I was like, I'm going to and then end up where he is. You know, whatever you give or take about how you feel about him. The messaging is I'm gonna stick to who I am.
I'm gonna stick to what I know. I'm gonna cater to the audience that I know. I'll see what can come of it. Yes. And you have to appreciate whether like I said, wherever you stand on whatever side, appreciate the work ethic.
Yes. Yes. Yes. And to me, that is bliss liberation. Me too.
Me too. I agree. I agree. I had a thought, but I don't even remember anymore because I was really attuned to what you were saying. But it's so when we think about liberation because this podcast really is all about how we make the abstract concrete.
Right? So how we make this abstract sense of what liberation is. Like, it's not just like, oh, we're fighting for. Like, how do we materialize it in our personal lives? And I think that we're hitting on a lot of nuggets here about how we materialize it, how we embody it in our personal lives.
So I'm enjoying Yeah. This discussion. Thank you. I mean, it's it's and I think for me, one of the messages is that, again, it's nothing that's overnight. And give yourself grace for when you go back to your default.
Yeah. Right? When you sit in that meeting or in that boardroom and you know you should speak up, but you don't. Don't beat yourself up for it because there's also a nuance of also knowing when to speak up. Right?
And also knowing the place. So if you think that they come home and you go, like, damn it. I should've said this. That is okay. That is okay, sis.
Because it's not a journey that happens overnight. It is not a switch that just goes on and off. It really is a process to get to a point where you could go, I'm good. I can say this. I can do this thing.
I'm going to push through knowing that I'm pushing through for the greater good and for myself. But the benefits of those, not doing anything negative because we're not telling you to push through to roll up a bike and say, well, you're free. But we're saying that if whatever you're doing is within you have listened to your soul and you've listened to that inner voice and you're answering that call, then give yourself grace Mhmm. In the process. Yeah.
It's not always easy. You are someday, moments, you're gonna you're gonna get an f. But it doesn't mean that you failed. It just means that today you have to forgive, and you keep it and you keep moving forward. It's a myth.
Right? And it's a myth that change is linear, and it's rooted in both colonial and patriarchal ways of being, like, in this if then kind of thinking. Well, if I do this, if I start on this liberation journey, then I'm gonna be liberated. Right? Right.
Right. Process, and it's in our everyday decision making, and we choose in every day and every minute of every day how aligned will I be with my power? How do you know what liberated choice will I be? So I like that in any behavior change, there will be some regression going back defaulting back to, what was the norm. Right?
Because it's simpler than just, like, oh, well, you know, we have neural pathways developed for all of our behaviors. So when we default back to a behavior, it's also a psychological process. Right? It's a neurochemical process that we would so naturally go back to what was safe and what worked the defenses that worked the survival mechanisms that worked for us for so long. Mhmm.
So I do think that we have to, you know, also have grace for ourselves in the process and to know it's not a one and done. Like, this is a whole lifetime's commitment, you know, to getting it right is yeah. Getting it right. Because all of this has been about robbing us of our own power, personal power, social power, collective power. Correct.
And the other part to that too is that, yes give yourself grace and also don't think that liberation and freedom means, full peace, right, or absence of challenges. Mhmm. Because the more liberated you get, the more you own your voice, the more you're going to get pushed back. Mhmm. No lie.
Right? That and you have it is a space when we talk about, brave space. It is a brave space that you have to prepare yourself to step into because, you know, people think that peace means absence of violence or but it doesn't. Right? There are 2 things that could exist that 1.
You could have peace and challenges. And to and to gain peace, you have to face challenges. Right? Like, Martin Luther King, you know, we just celebrated that a couple days ago. He was like, well, I think that we should have peace and everybody was like, sure.
Right. Exactly. Let's give it to him. I like, he just didn't, it just didn't work that way. Yeah.
So you have to also in this journey of liberation, it is liberation but arm yourself because you are now going to show up in a way that people are not accustomed to you showing up, and that is gonna bring pushback. You're gonna show up in a way. Liberation is 100% about being in the right relationship with our power. It's so easy from day to day to disconnect from our source and forget who we really are. On our app, Living Liberated, we have the tools to keep you plugged in.
You'll find a library of affirmations, guided meditations, guided journeys, and tapping sequences to keep you in a state of alignment with who you really are. Topics range from self love, healthy relationships, activating our DNA, to guided journeys with your ancestors. Download our free app, living liberated, and start your free 7 day trial now in the app store or Google play. You can also find the link for Plugged In in the description box below. That people don't want you to show up because it benefited them when you were silenced.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And now you dare to speak up and it's and it's conjuring it to who who they've seen you to be. And it doesn't work for them anymore. It doesn't work when you are the assistant director and you were assigned to the director and all of a sudden you're speaking up and they're like, I mean, what?
Do you have a voice? You are I need you to be silent so I can shine. So, you know, and and you could, whether it's your family, whether you're in a relationship, whatever situation you're in, brace yourself that the more liberated you become, the more you find your voice, the more the more you hone into who you are. Guarantee it that you're gonna get some pushback, but that is okay. Yeah.
I think it's it's it's you have to stay well resourced with this going into it when you have this knowledge that, like, there's gonna be pushback. It's not necessarily gonna be the absence of challenge or struggle. Right? You have to be well resourced. And, you know, well resourced is a whole conversation that we can go into.
It includes self care, having proper sleep, having proper nutrition, having support, a community, a system of support that you can bounce these ideas off of and Illuminating, folks. Exactly. Right. Exactly. And so it's important for us to be well resourced.
And, also, I like to also preemptively say that people talk a good talk of liberation until they have to give something up. Right? Yes. So it made me think of a conversation here. And you talk made me think of a conversation in a work context that I've had.
Right? When everybody's like, yo. You know, we're so you know, we're anti racist. We're so, you know, culturally responsive, culturally competent, all of this talk. Right?
And then you name I named pay differentials, really, because what looks inequitable to me is the fact that you and I were hired at the same time, except that I'm a black woman and you're a Black man, and there's a 10, $15,000 pay differential. Right? And, specifically, I was told this happened, but I'm the the person who I'm talking about is actually an ally, so this is not necessarily to demonize him, but to make an example. Right? This happened even when I advocated for myself and I was and I pushed for before this person was hired, I pushed for more money.
I was like, well, I'm coming from here and I'm already making this, but I'm asking I'm coming to a more of a private institution rather than a public one, but my salary is decreasing. And they were like and the person I was negotiating my salary with was, like, what'd she say? She is. Right? You hear that?
What'd she say? So, you know, so internalized the gender impression that she also then became an arm. But, basically, she had said oh, well, one thing she said was that, oh, I can't pay you higher than the other person in the department who, you know, is in that role. Yet a month or 2 later, somebody comes in, and they get paid, like, 10 to 12, maybe even $15,000 more. Right?
So lies first and foremost. But I'm in the department that I was in, they were paying equities. Right? Then you talk about equity, but then if it comes down to, okay. Well, let's make it fair and equal so that Nicole gets what Norissa gets.
Is it gonna be, is it gonna be the same, like, yes. Right. Right. Right. Or it's like, woah.
Wait a minute. Right. So people talk this talk until there actually is a redistribution of resources because liberation, social justice, calls for a redistribution of resources, and people don't always include that part, think about that part, like that part. Yes. Because it's this idea that I want something to happen but not not me.
I've been not putting my not my salary but I want it to happen. Right? Or and I've been a somebody who should have been an educator so I've definitely heard those who talk about anti racism that, oh, I'm an ally, I'm an ally. And then they go through the checklist of the books that they've read. Of course, I've read Golden Mohammed and, you know, I've read White Rage and Robin Di I've read all those things.
I get it. Great. Now what are you doing about it? Wait, what? Oh, I thought I was just supposed to read.
Right? And I think they think that they get it because they're just reading things. But to your point, like, liberation is an action word. You have to do something. It's not just.
And it's not just me. The act of liberation. There is no one that I could think of that did liberation on a national or international level and just did it for themselves. Yeah. And someone could challenge me.
I'm not. I don't read all the things. Don't know all the people. But true liberation, when you talk about the great leaders, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa, whatever you feel about them otherwise, you know, Pablo Freire seeks about his pedagogy of the oppressed. It was never how can I get myself out of this thing?' It was never the 'I'? So if you're really, really talking about liberation, it may start with you but you're not doing it really authentically if you're doing it for yourself.
Yes. Multilevelism. Right? Yeah. It really works for you.
Right? Because you have to deconstruct these mental paradigms. Right? So the ways in which we cognitively internalize these relational patterns. Right?
So you do have to do your work, but that alone is not sufficient. We have to think about what the four eyes of oppression talk about, interpersonal oppression, interpersonal oppression, institutional, which is also structural systemic, and then also ideological. Right? So we have to be if we actually want to experience change, we have to be working on all four levels. Right.
Otherwise, if I'm doing all the things for myself to decolonize my site, but the institution continues to reinforce it, then I'm just being in an institution that, 1, over time, I may give up the fight because it's too hard. Right? Or else I'll leave the institution, which has happened, which is my life, which is why I work myself now. Right. But it is you know, but there but we're always still interacting with ideologies and systems that are reinforcing it.
So it must be a multilevel, kind of approach and intervention. I agree with you. Yeah. It isn't like you said, I think that some people stop at the eye. Yeah.
Which is, like you said, you have to start with yourself. And, you know, Iyanla Vanzant talks about filling your cup. What is in the cup for you? What overflows are for other people? So you have to fill your cup first.
And I definitely believe in that, but it doesn't to your point, it doesn't stop with just you. You have to do all of it to create real real change. And it is also so fulfilling. Mhmm. And, like, if you really wanted to go back to the I, once you do those four things and it comes full circle, you feel good.
You feel good that you've made a change. At least, I think, for me. Legacy. You said legacy earlier. What is your legacy?
Let What's your legacy? What are you doing? How are you trying to make a change? Ain't free. None of us are free.
Come on down. Right. Harriet, tell me then I have to go back. Okay, exactly. She's like, I'm good.
Oh shoot, we in Canada. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like she that was that's and and you know it isn't to me it's not the legacy, it's not within the DNA that we come from As people of African descent, we're communal. Right?
Naturally it's about the community. Now granted colonialism has deconstructed that and we've gone into this idea of what it is of individuality Yeah. Which is very anti who we are, I think, as a people. But at the root of who we are, we are trends. Yeah.
They're communal. There's this there's there's there's a reason that cultures ate with their hands so that they could connect with the food because the food connected with the earth. So there was this whole line of nurturing your body. You thank the earth. You thank the food.
Everybody's there's a thing behind it. Yeah. And that's just one example but we have come to this individualistic way of thinking. So if you decide to go through and go through this idea of liberation and you go, alright. I'm good.
That at least you didn't get it. It. Exactly. You didn't get to understand the message. You did not under you didn't look at your ancestors.
You didn't look for your history. If you just didn't, you just did it. Yeah. And you are carrying out the white man's work without him even being present. So he's up there going like, 'Thank you very much for carrying on my franchise.' Right?
Because I, you know, I believe racism is the best and most successful franchise that has ever been made. It doesn't have the owner to be present, but it runs on its own really, really well. And when you think about franchises and you think about how Germany and Hitler and the Nazis modeled their hierarchy after the racial hierarchies they saw here in South Africa also. So franchise is, like, such an appropriate term when you think about it. Franchise.
Best words. Right? Yeah. But, you know, when you talk about Germany, it was and I cannot pronounce the same, and I don't even feel bad about that. When he was looking at the skulls and he began to name them and where where this idea of hierarchy and and race and knowledge and all that came about And looking at the African skull and going, well, they are the lower, you know, they are less intelligent, they are not human yet yet, all the things that it was labeled.
On us, it really of course, we know it set the tone, but we also know, of course, it was complete, utter, like non science, right? And that has continued to perpetuate into and evolved into all the things. But you're right, it is the best franchise. It was through, you know, people always talk about there were slaves in others that's usually like the white counterparts. Well, Romans had slaves or whatever, whatever.
But what America did really, really well, right, because of it it's a real capitalist society, is that it took racism to another level. It took it ingrained into the institution and gave it legs, right? So it was it might have been a mom and pop store in other countries. But here, we was like, we could make this into a mall. Right.
Right? I'll put a mall in every institution. We're gonna put a mall in health care, we're gonna put a mall in education, we're gonna put it in policing and in like, you name it. Yeah. And what America did really, really well was that they were able to ingrain it into every system, into capitalism, it gets into health care.
So now it's so intertwined into the system that it can't be. It's the best practice ever. If yeah. If not interrupted, if not dismantled in some way, it has everything it needs to continue to reproduce itself all the way down to the psyche. Yes.
All the way down to the psyche. Even if we think of so when we talk about intrapersonal oppression. Right? So we're internalizing oppression, and it's manifesting in internalized superiority or internalized inferiority. Even that right there continues the replication.
So it's like, oh, I'm not gonna apply for the job. They don't know they don't really get people like me, or it might manifest as imposter syndrome. I don't really belong here. You know? I'm smart as everybody.
So so so all of it. All of it. The whole system, the whole structure is made in such a way that we will if not interrupted, if not for our personal and collective liberation journeys, it'll continue. Yeah. A question: Sure.
In full. Right? So I'm curious about your journey. Like, how did you get where you are? We've heard that you're a reader.
Right? You're you're you educate yourself. Right? And I also imagine that it also comes with growth. Right?
Because you get into a certain decade, and then you're like, mhmm. Mm-mm. Not anymore. Right? No.
Right. Right. That ain't hard. Exactly. What else for you?
What else has contributed to you to who we see? And we knowing also that there is, like, no endpoint because Right. Our systems are not liberated. It's a continuous process. But what else has contributed to where you are today?
It's so funny you said that because the first person that came to mind was my good friends, right? So I believe in the village. But we talk about lights going off. Last summer I burnt myself out. As you know, I'm an educator.
I was doing Change Agents, which is an academy that's there's a lot of liberation that the one and only teaches. Taught by you. But I was going so hard for so long, nonstop. And in June of last year, I felt like I was at Shawshank Redemption just counting down the days, right, like making it on the wall until I was until school the school year was done because I was burnt out. I had nothing else to give.
And I saw it and I felt defeated and I really took some of the summer off so I just didn't want to do anything. And, my part and I was my partner at the time, he was telling him, like, I don't wanna do these things and I feel really and he is being very supportive. But one day, I was home. Oh, this is so embarrassing. I was home at around 2 o'clock in my robe, we'd been watching Seinfeld for, like, the 20th millionth time and he called as he was at work. He's like, what do you do all day?
Like, what do you mean? Don't act to me what I do all day da da da da. Right? That's what I said in my head.
And I kind of like I was like, nothing because I'm tired. And he gave me the speech about reconnecting, that you're smart and yada yada, and that you understand what you've been through. He said, what do you want to do? And he said, well, I was and I was mulling over the idea of, like, joining or working classes and and just getting back into it because I knew my soul felt empty. I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where you're like, I am doing all the things.
Yeah. I've attained success. You know, romance is a success in all things. My bills are paid. I've got a couple dollars in the bank.
401 ks, IRA. Like, I've done the things. Mhmm. You know, but I am not feeling fulfilled Mhmm. At all.
Like, all the boxes are checked off. The resume was good. I was getting job offers at the time. Like, all the things were checking off. Mhmm.
Credit score was nice. You know what I mean? Like, girl, it was the things that were there and I felt empty. Mhmm. Pretty empty.
And, after the conversation with him, I told him that I was toying around with doing these things. And I started going joining writing groups and even and after like free writing groups and I remember sitting in 1 and it was the only black girl who was draining. So I went of course, he's my thought partner, so I went back to him. I was like, there's a really good part of it that I get you to be in these spaces, but I don't wanna explain why black lives matter. My writing is different than theirs and it's just it just wasn't like everything wasn't clicking for me.
And he said, so why don't you create this space? Mhmm. I said that's what you do for your job. This is literally what you do. You create spaces.
How about you create a space for yourself? And Marissa, when I tell you that was like for me? For me. Not for a company, not for an institution, not for a program. For me?
Mhmm. I don't. I've never done that. In all my years, I have never done it for me. Raised 1,000,000 of dollars for students, Ray Dunlady thing, citywide initiative, 100 of Skip. I've never done it for me.
And that put such a fire inside of me. Within 2 weeks, I created an Eventbrite page. I said, this is what I'm gonna do. I came up with the name and you gotta love him. When he saw it, he was like, I love it, but this is bleak because he's very he's a Taurus.
He's very, very blunt. I mean, a lot, but he's very blunt. And he does websites. So he created and he's like, if you give me all the content, I'll create a site for you. And he did that.
And within 3 weeks, I launched my first class as a test. And since then, I've been, you know, building on Larry Wright, publishing authors. I have a national newsletter, updating websites. I just finished my book and, trying to figure out the way, you know Hey, hold on. Let me just finish your book.
Is this a book that I know about or is this another one? This is another one. So I'm in between, like, 2 there's one is that the book goes along with the course. Okay. And then of course my love for writing, my love is around suspense thrillers because and trying to be like, I love, like, the John Grisham and the Robert Ludlam who does, Bourne Identity.
So I love those kinds of Tom Clancy books. By the pure fact that I can name these men are 30 white men Yeah. Who dominates those spaces. So I and maybe they are black women who are doing thriller suspense but not to the media level, an international level, that you could just simply say John Grisham, everybody's like, yeah, of course. Stephen King, of course.' Right?
And, that's a genre that's my passion also, so I'm still writing that one but the first one is complete. Nice. And it just really put me on a journey. So, you know, I had a really long response to it was my partner and it was friends who were like, well, you know again. Right?
Like I said in the beginning, my soul is waiting in the car and they're going like, when is she? So we've been here for a minute. It was that. It was having an encouraging circle and an encouraging network. And that's what when you mentioned earlier about, you know, your resources, Why it's so important to have the right resources.
Not the person who's gonna blow smoke up here or the person who's going to discourage you because they don't wanna see you get you know, you have to decipher the person and or persons in your life who are going to breathe life into you and also reciprocate that. Breathe life into them. Breathing life into someone doesn't mean agreeing with everything. Don't be that bobblehead friend. Like, everything they say about this is great.
But also being able to give honest advice and honest guidance and be able to receive honest advice and honest guidance even when it doesn't feel right. So when I'm on my couch watching Seinfeld in my robe at 2 PM, and he dared to challenge me and it didn't feel right and I wanted to be my, what you trying to say? Right? I wanted in my head that's what I was and because of it but it didn't feel good because he touched a sensitive spot. Yeah.
But I sat. I had to sit back and go like, okay, he has my best interest. He's right. I'm not gonna tell him he's right because I'm still stubborn. It's not yet. But I was able to receive it.
So to be able to receive uncomfortable information that it comes with love, genuine, authentic love. And from that, because of that one conversation, I was able to develop blah. Right? And he was like, and that's what I'm talking about. Yeah.
Right? So that's that was, you know, outside of my voice. It was also having someone who believes in you. And I do not believe that we are put on this planet with 8,000,000,000 people to do this thing by ourselves. Yeah.
Not everybody needs someone. I do not believe, again, this goes back to whiteness, this idea of bootstrapping. Well, somebody had to give you the boots. Okay. Where did you get them from?
Right. So you got help. Exactly. Unless you're in the back with some leather. Where did you get the leather?
Right. Wait. Like, it all goes back and connects to somebody. So this individualistic concept for me is one that I reject as part of my liberation. Yeah.
You have to tap into your resources. And with the book, it's called Not Just Words, A Journey to Freedom Freedom's Freedom Dreaming to journal. And freedom dreams the concept of freedom dreaming is just that. Right? It's manifesting on 100.
It is really but it's not only just manifesting, it is pulling all of your resources that you have in order to get the thing that you want to get. So it's not sitting at home on faith and going, I hope this happened. I hope Amazon is going to deliver me the thing, whether it's the good man, the degree or whatever. Like, it doesn't work like that. Right?
You actually have to do something in order to get the thing that you want to get. And the book is a guide to people to manifest their dreams and manifest whatever that goal is. But in this case, of course, it's writing. And I take them through all the things. All I think of is all the barriers that you encounter as you're trying to liberate yourself.
So like procrastination, honing your voice, losing your passion, finding your passion, understanding that you're standing on the shoulders of giants and you're not the first person to go through this liberation journey. And I give examples whether it's from mostly going through the BIPOC community, whether it was, you know, Japanese or or, Middle Eastern and African American, African like, every culture has someone who went on this journey and this is how it manifested. Now let's take you on yours. Yeah. Oh, I love it.
And that's and that's the work. That's the book. By the end, it's not a 30 days to 365. I don't I didn't want to put any time constraints on it because it's your journey. Yeah.
You could pick it up anywhere. You could pick it up in any part of it. You choose a chapter that speaks to you. You choose a part that speaks to your journey and to your liberation. And it's not just telling you these things, but it actually gives concrete strategies and exercises that you have to do so that you have to do some writing.
How about that? Right? Mhmm. So they're writing prompts and they're, like I said, they're they're works, they're exercises because I'm someone who is an educator. So I'm someone to teach something Mhmm.
That you go through that would help you find your voice and then teach you to write. And not, like, teach you to write as in here's grammatical and here's some techniques, because, again, it's freeing. Make the errors. That's what we have Grammarly for, and we have Microsoft Word or whatever. Right?
But it is for you to pour yourself out because we connect to books or movies or art that we see ourselves in. And in order for us to get people to connect to our work, we have to show them who we are. Mhmm. Right? You have to be authentic.
If you go back to Tyler Perry, that is a part of who he is. So he connected to him. Someone else connected to Madea. Yeah. Your writing is connected to you.
And trust me, you're gonna find someone who connects to your writing. And that's the purpose of wanting a black rewrite, but the book when it comes out, so I'm really excited. Yes. I'm trying not to, like, go back and forth on it because you've published, so you know, there's always, like, maybe I could add this. Maybe I could.
I'm like, it's done. I am done. Yeah. Oh, yes. Now that's the next step.
Yeah. So good. What I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you okay. So one thing that I wanted which struck me when we talked about, like, what has helped you on your liberation journey and the answer really being having a community. Right?
And I just wanted to name what your partner did. Right? So there was emotional support. Right? So there was also material material resource, right, to be able to be like, I got you.
And not every not every partner is gonna do your website. But my husband is a graphic designer, so I was like, I need a logo for this. I need a logo for that, and I need it by Tuesday. Are we good? Are we good?
Right. Exactly. So it could be material emotional resource, material resource, and it might not all be in the same person. You might need multiple people Right. You know, to be able to play those roles.
But there are so many social resources. All these social resources that we have within our communities that should be leveraged because we need somebody to hold the mirror to say, Nicole, do you know, to what this is the good Nicole I see, and you're not a match right now. How can we be a match? So I really really love and honor that. Yeah.
Then the second question I have or or is this, like, my 12th question? I don't know. The next question I have is when will the book be released? How can people get it? Sure.
So I am aiming to knock it on wood. Put it in an Angel's hand. I'm aiming for March. I want to, yeah. And once it is released, I'm gonna have it on my website, and it's gonna be available on all platforms from Amazon to Barnes and Noble, you name it.
So we are having a book signing? Like, is there gonna be a book launch? You know what? I wanna say yes. Okay.
That's good. That's good. I am going to say yes. I am putting that in the universe. So the universe does walk with as you may.
But, yes, there is going to be something because and, you know, it's a celebration of me and also walking the walk. Right? Like, this is the work that I put the audience, the students through, then also to be able to say, I am I am one of you. This is again, we're not alone in this process. Yes.
Right? And here are the things that helped me. This is not a generic anything. I went through this. I know what it is.
I could procrastinate. Do you understand? If I really put my mind to it and or or even if I don't because it comes with ease. Well, how do you overcome that? Because people tend to think procrastination is laziness and it's not.
Okay. It's the theories behind it, the studies behind it is not laziness. It really isn't. It's a psychological barrier. So we attack so I attack those also in the book.
Like, you're not lazy, but here's what's and I had to go through that for myself because I was like, am I lazy? No. Like but what's the thing? And a lot of it was fear. How am I going to be judged if I do this?
All the things that and everyone has their own the their own whatever barrier that is, the only internal clock that is I mean, voice or radio that is telling them something negative that's replaying, into their head, and I had mine. And I had to overcome that. It's about me, it was also about finding my space. And by that, I meant where in my home, or work or on the train that I can quiet the noise, and it's serene, and what does that look like? And you really go through all of that.
So whenever the book comes in, you know, because I'm aiming for March. But, yes, there will be a book signing. It will also be available on my website, www.rewrite.com. And, yeah, there's gonna be a little a lot of things about it. Yeah.
We'll also put it in the description box so you all can, well, you'll have the website so you all can find out about when there are courses, when the book will be launching, and all those kinds of things as well. Yeah. One thing I thought a little bit earlier and it's not necessarily the question. It's more as it's just supporting what you said. You said something about identification and in books, and it made me think about black cake.
Right? And so did you see black cake? Of course. And I have the book somewhere on here. Is okay.
I'm looking around, but yes. Okay. You who's the author? I just wanna give Williams. Oh my gosh.
Where am I not? It begins to see. Let's just go blank for me. But yes. Yes. Okay.
So y'all can Google it. Right? But what was right? So I identify with many black stories that I see on TV, but there's not a lot of Caribbean stories. Right?
And black cake itself and I'm not Jamaican. You know, my family Right. Right. My dad. But even this repeated bringing up of black cake and what that meant for me and, you know, and how it mirrored back your value, your worth, and all those things is it cannot be overstated.
Right? And so I was thinking about that when you said that earlier, and I had I was like, remember I said something? I was like, I forgot what I wanted to say. It was Yes. And black cake and seeing if you had seen it.
Yes. I did. And my cousin was the one we're talking about in my village. My cousin was the one who said, you need to watch this. And when you speak about connectivity, right, and this author having to know and I'm sorry, for some reason, they're not 111.
Those who know that you know, right, for reading that and and and when we talk about connectivity, it made me just it really cemented the message that I'm trying to send that it connected with me because I can tell you right now literally it could go in my fridge and there's black cake in my my fridge. Mhmm. Mhmm. We have, like, 2, 3 black cakes downstairs. Right?
And when she spoke in the book when they talked about tin milk and tea. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
I mean what? There's no other way to drink tea. Because regular milk just doesn't do the thing. I mean you have that Lipton's tea. Yes.
So it was really refreshing to see that But when you talk about identity markers, that hit all of my identity markers. Yes. Yes. So I ordered 2 books. I ordered one for my cousin and I ordered one for myself.
Yeah. Right? Because it resonated within me. And to anyone, you know, going back to Black Rewrite who comes through the course, that is the message. Yeah.
You're 8,000,000,000 people. You're going to find your audience. Yeah. You're going to find your audience because if you stay authentic and that writer, she stays authentic to her story, even the accents because a lot of times, you know, they just add the word mon on everything. Exactly.
They figure it's Caribbean. Right? Exactly. Even though they were I'm I'm not gonna lie. There were some points where they were cringeworthy like, but it's the best yet.
It's the best yet. You know? That And I've never seen on on I've never seen on this level in terms of, like, media, when they talk about the Chinese Jamaican immigrants. Yes. They don't talk about that.
Nope. I've never seen it. I mean, unless you're a part of the culture, it's almost like I remember the first time I saw a Chinese woman speaking patois. You know, it was like, I was like, where is the doll?
Right. What? Yeah. But it was so great for people who grew up in Jamaica and are Jamaican. Right?
Are the Chinese immigrants who settled there and were born there and generations there able to see themselves because they're Jamaican. Yeah. Yeah. Jamaican. Right?
And it isn't yeah. And that wasn't shown. So she really was so smart in tapping into a beautiful array of who we are. We do not again, we're not monolithic. Right?
We don't come as just black. Mhmm. Don't come that way. Caribbean is just very just an amazing tapestry of, you know, United Colors of Benetton ad. Like, that's who we are.
So, yes, that Kate resonated with me and I hope that, you know, through the work that you're doing and through the work that I'm doing, that we continue to have people connect to who they are. Because through her connection, whatever her journey is, or was for her to create Black Cake, there had to be, I'm gonna sit in who I am Yeah. And I'm gonna celebrate my culture. Yeah. Right?
And I hope that audience loves it, and they do because people are like, what's where's part 2? Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, season 2 gotta happen. I would.
When we were watching it, it wasn't you know, when you 're used to, like, binging stuff now. Right? And I'm like, we watched the first three episodes. I'm like, oh, man. The whole thing is not out yet?
We gotta wait till Wednesday? Like, it was really good. It was Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
I was in the same position too. My cousin because my cousin was the one who turned me on to it and I watched it first. I got there at the first 5 all day on the couch, again with the robe, and I binged all 5 episodes. I'm like, Exactly. Yeah.
It was really lovely to watch. But it's, again, it's about connectivity and she did a fabulous job. Yes. Of connecting and keeping it authentic. Yes. Yes.
I know that. Even the music. I know that music and Yes. Yes. Sound.
It's very, very, very real. Yeah. Yes. It was. So today was a great discussion.
Thank you so much. We talked, we talked a lot. We talked a lot about a lot of things. We definitely wanna sit with what Black Read and Write does, so make sure that you go and look into it, see how you can get involved. I sat in 2 of the classes, 2, maybe 3 of the classes, and I saw how powerful it was for the people, even for me in engaging.
And also for and it was only an hour long, but it was, like, just so rich and so meaningful. And what happened in the breakout rooms, it was shifting. It was cognitive shifting in a way and just freedom. Like, you embrace freedom in a different way. So, definitely, all of you who are watching, make sure to look out for that.
We also talked a lot about personal and collective liberation and what the relationship to it is and and really just situating ourselves in this liberation discussion. So is there anything that you'd like to say to the audience before we close? Juan, thank you so much, sis. And I mean that, sis, in every way. I really appreciate you thinking of me.
I really appreciate you creating this platform just for yourself also. It's part of your liberation. Right? It is. Like, this is an extension or this is what we talk about when you bring the community in.
It's not just for yourself. Yeah. It's just how you are helping other people. So I appreciate that. When it comes to black rewrite, not only for the classes, but if you are an author, and like I said, if the only thing you've ever written was a grocery list, or you are on your 5th book, or you have that that book that you started and it's open in your Google tab, you just always gonna pass it over because you haven't touched it and you're not you know, you have all the characters in your head.
This is a place for you. I would love to be able to. I'm always looking for new and emerging artists, writers. So feel free to contact us at info at blackrewrite.com. Send us your stories.
Tell us you're interested. Definitely will reach out to you and have you featured in our newsletter because every week we want to be able to feature a new artist. Like I said before, for every author, black author that they take off the shelves, we are here to put 10 more on. And plus, because we are fighting back, our stories need to be heard. They have to be heard.
And library writers hopefully contributing to that. Absolutely. Thank you. Until the next time, y'all. Alright.
Great. Thanks for listening. If you've loved what we've had to share and wanna be the first to get releases of our new episodes and learn about events, download our free app, Living Liberated, in the Apple or Google Play Store.
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