In this episode, Dr. Norissa and Dr. Bukky, the podcast hosts, shed more light on the meaning of GEMMification, white supremacy, the idea of being a GEMM, types of GEMMs, consequences of being deGEMMified and the different kinds of GEMMs. They also continue further and discuss in details the concept of deGEMMification, meaning of liberation, alignment in one’s own power, how power is important in locating liberation and the phases of liberation.
Timestamps
[00:55] Meaning of GEMMification
[03:42] White supremacy
[07:58] The idea of being a GEMM
[10:45] Types of GEMMs
[17:35] Consequences of being deGEMMified
[25:48] Different kinds of GEMMs
[37:40] The concept of deGEMMification
[38:25] Meaning of liberation
[46:47] Alignment with one’s own power
[52:38] How power is important in locating liberation
[57:37] The phases of liberation
Notable Quotes
(01:03) “GEMM stands for Good Effective Mainstream Minority.”
(03:50) “White supremacy is the way whiteness has been normed within institutions.”
(09:27) “It’s not whether or not we are a GEMM. It’s either you are a GEMM end up dead, or end up in jail.”
(9:40) “The question really hasn’t been are you a GEMM or not, the question is really about how much of a GEMM you are.”
(10:05) “DeGEMMification is the process through which you start to reclaim your own self.”
(16:14) “People who are engaged in a liberation have a target placed on their backs.”
(19:28) “To decide to be liberated requires risk.”
(24:42) “The only way we get there is really in context with our ability to be vulnerable and be honest about what the truth is.”
(54:29) “Restorative justice is about people coming into right relationships with those they have harmed.”
(59:19) “Liberation has no final end, it is ongoing and continually involves acquisition of knowledge of yourself.”
Relevant Links
Radical Remembering Podcast
Website: https://radicalremembering.com/
Connect with Dr. Norissa
Connect with Dr. Bukky
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Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. Thank you for listening to the Radical Remembering podcast! Listen to our next podcast, subscribe now, and tell a friend about us.
Transcript
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:01
Welcome to Radical Remembering with psychologist
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:04
Dr. Norissa
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:05
And Dr. Bukky
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:06
This is a weekly conversation where we explore the ways we've internalized oppression and consider what it really means to be liberated.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:12
Each episode will leave you with intimate knowledge of the liberation process, sprinkle a little healing magic, and leave you with wisdom for your journey. What's up, you all welcome back. Today our topic is Degemmification and liberation. You probably remember me mentioning and referencing that word at our last conversation. So, we're going to unpack that word a little bit, and then we're going to get into liberation and start breaking that down and just starting all the goodness with it. What would you add Norissa.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 00:45
No, nothing else to add. I'm just curious to pick up where we left off, what is Degemmification? And I guess it starts with the identification of what gemmification is.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 00:55
So, let me start off by saying gemmification is, I mean, the term the word gemm, really, it stands for good, effective, mainstream minority. And it is a word that Dr. Kenneth Hardy came up with. And it's critical that we give credit to the brilliance of Dr. Hardy because he just is amazing. But essentially, when we're talking about gemmification or degemmification, the first thing we want to break down is what it means to be gemm. And so, one of the things that people have been talking about scholars, scholars have been naming, but what Dr. Hardy has done is putting it in a beautiful package, so it's easy for us to really understand and digest, is this idea of the ways in which institutions, all of the different institutions that we engage with, apply what Dr. Hardy says subtle and persistent pressures to people of color to fit into the prevailing racial norms of a setting, usually predominately white institutions. So essentially, in my mind because of white supremacy and white supremacy ideology, it is the process through which POCs are expected and reinforced and coerced into relinquishing who they are racially, and therefore culturally, in order to be mainstream. And when I say mainstream, it’s essentially being white-like Neo white, anything but POC identified. And Norissa, when I've heard you talk about it, you use the word enforced assimilation, it’s the exact same thing as what we’re talking about. And so, part of the way I just think about it is my just, like cut to the chase way of saying it, and yeah, I'm probably like, cut to the chase, Bukky rarely cuts to the chase with all the different words I have. But the gist is the whitewashing of POCs. And that happens through our engagements and through engagement with institutions. And it is without our awareness, and it perpetuates our own internalization of showing up with whiteness and culture, in terms of our consciousness. It is essentially the process through which we start to internalize white supremacy, and ideology and are acting it out and living by those rules and operating with those rules as the primary way and lens through which we should be doing all things. And so for folks who are newer to the conversation, and just really start at the beginning of your conversation, whenever we talk about, actually Norissa, let me bring you in here. When we talk about white supremacy, white supremacy ideology, can you break down for them what that is what that means?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 03:41
White supremacy, it's always so hard to simplify to abstract concepts. So white supremacy really just speaks to the ways whiteness has been normed within institutions. And similar to what you were saying, so the ways whiteness has been normed in institutions and the way that it is enforced and reinforced by way of violence and nonviolence, it doesn't have to be physical to make sure that people are in line with what that ideology is. And it can manifest in a number of ways. Timo Kuhn in her 2010 book and then she revised it also in 2020, it could be found on her website talks about characteristics of white supremacy culture, so paternalism, that leadership has to be top down I tell you what to do, how to do it, and there's a lack of transparency these are just some of the characteristics objective on this the written word is worship. And so for all other cultures who value oral traditions that is not valued, securing white comfort and so making sure that we're like everybody quiet, don't rock the boat and different things like that with naming whiteness and racism as a problem, and all those kinds of things. So basically, it's a whole system in operation to maintain the ‘supremacy’ of whiteness, and it operates in all of our institutions, and societally, and however many years post slavery we are in America, it maintains the systems that have been in place for so long.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 05:18
Thank you so much Norissa. What I would add is that the way that I like to think about it is like, certainly in this country, and even outside of this country, I think this idea of white supremacy fundamentally, is this idea, this illusion, this myth that white is superior, and it is hyper valued. My friend, Tony Hudson, says it in this way and I always appreciate it, it's like, it's the system of hierarchy that places white on top, and hyper values white, and whiteness, and white culture, white norms, white thoughts, white consciousness, all of that, and devalues black and indigenous, and then erases the people in between. That's one of the best ways that I really appreciate thinking about this concept of like, it's whenever we're talking about this hierarchy that exists. And that's what I'm talking about when I say white supremacy. And getting into the details as to what Norissa just laid out for folks here. Anyway, the reason why this feels important is saying that one of the things, when you think about whiteness and consciousness, is like the thinking of unconscious white people. And so one example is this idea of being colorblind. We're all the same, and we have similar experiences. Yeah, we're all humans with different backgrounds, but there's a denial and a dismissal of structural and systemic racism. And so, part of the ways that this system, one of the tactics that has been in place, and has been put in intentionally has been the use of different racial oppression, and racial suppression tactics, where we are having an experience, but if we're all the same, and there is no racism, then what's actually happening here, so we don't even have language to be able to talk about the experience we're having. So anyway, the part of the gist here around being a gemm is essentially the ways in which our society socializes us. If you think about it, until the murder of George Floyd, and even after the murder of George Floyd and the rest of the folks who were being harmed daily, the ways in which as a country, we've been silent on race, except we're in interracial spaces, we’re definitely talking about it, right? But in interracially, Dr. Hardy says in this brilliant way where he says, there's been a gag order on talking about race. And so, this piece when we think about this idea of being a gemm, it is this whitewashing that happens that essentially socializes, people of color into the norms, and the thinking of whiteness, that results in us then maintaining and perpetuating it our own selves. And so Dr Hardy named this gemmification is the process through which institutions do that, and the end product is us becoming gemms. And so that's what Dr. Hardy did with his work. And he wrote this article, and Norissa we should probably drop a link to this article, so people can have access to these resources. So, he wrote this article years ago, where he was, essentially, it's like a letter to clinicians, to graduate students, as they're finishing their clinical work around the rules of being a gemm. So, he's essentially in some ways tongue in cheek to be like, do this more, become more of a gemm. And so that's where he sort of captured a lot of his thinking around about being a gemm and gemmification process. And when I heard him speak about it, I heard him talk about gemms, it was the first time that I realized he was talking about me. And so, part of the work that I've done is sort of named the different types of gemms that I think exist. One of my colleagues said, it’s not whether or not you are a gemm, it's either you are a gemm, end up dead or end up in jail. And so historically, because of the ways our institutions are created, the question really hasn't been, are you a gemm or not? The question is really about how much of a gemm are you? And so, part of the piece Norissa you're going to lay out later on, is this piece around liberation. And so, it is because it is impossible to be socialized in predominantly white institutions without this institution turning you into a gemm, part of what then degemmification means is the process through which you start to reclaim your own self, reclaim your own voice, your own authenticity, your own lived identities, your own stories, your own practices, but it's a way of melanating yourself back, if that's a way of saying it. And so part of my hope, is to be able to talk a little bit more later on in this episode about the kinds of gemms that exist, but I want to just pause, I've been talking about a minute here, Norissa you can just react, get into it and see what's coming up for you
Dr. Norissa Williams: 10:39
No, I’m just listening, taking it all in.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 10:42
Yep. Okay. So, should I continue then? Okay. So, the way that I try to think about this is that there are different kinds of gemms that exists. And on one end of the spectrum, and I think the spectrum is really from how active you are, in terms of your use and utilization of your gemmification status to the passive. So, that's the spectrum. So, let me start in the middle and I'll go from one end to the other. So, in the middle is what I call the gao gemm. So gao as in good and obedience gemm. So, a gao gemm is, you remember what I was saying if you listened to last episode, I'm somebody who I would identify as a goa gemm in recovery. Okay. And it's a person of color white folks are very, very attracted to because you're palatable to white folks, you're like that good POC person, you're such a team player, you have very pleasant disposition, you're somebody who smiles through the pain of racism, you're not going to challenge people, when people give microaggressions you're going to swallow it silence. It's this piece around always maintaining this positive disposition, you’re the easy person to talk to, you're not like the other folks of color. So it's the POC person who if you're going to talk about race, you're going to do it in ways to make sure you're not activating like white people. And whether that's a conscious process or an unconscious process, but that process is happening internally for you, it’s always around prioritizing white comfort, and you do a lot of work to downregulate the experiences of your own activation, you're constantly suppressing it. So, essentially, the piece is not that the gao gemm is somebody who like, I don't know how to say this, but in my mind, the gao gemm is because of your relative privilege through class, a gao gemm is in constant proximity to whiteness. And so, you subscribe, in some ways to whiteness and culture and consciousness without any awareness of that or any interrogation of that. You might judge folks of color who talk about race explicitly, who will come forward with the rage that's real for them. Like you talked about people who are being too pro black, you see people who are pro black who are like, you see people as being on the extreme, there's so much activation. And my fundamental belief is that gao gemms essentially have not had access to a teacher, a mentor or guide that really offers the critical analysis, the education, the interrogation that really supports them in really seeing race and racism, and really helping them face their own pain and oppression because of what it means to live in a racist society. So, a gao gemm I think, is often educated and conscious about other forms of marginalization, but when it has to do with race, it's more of a hands off approach to race. Let me pause there Norissa, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. And by the way, the other piece I’d like to just give to the audience is, a lot of the things I'm talking about here is my own thinking around this based on my own experiences, and I'm starting to put this thing together. So, I'm going to name the subtypes that I think exist, you're going to be like, Oh, I got some more subtypes. And so if that's the case, please find us engage with us, email us, find us on Instagram, on Twitter and add to it, because I think this pieces around my interest here is about giving us language to start to talk about our experiences of what it's been like to operate in predominantly white institutions, and the impact it's had on us, and how it's requiring us to show up in ways that we know isn't telling the full story of who we really are.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 15:20
I'm listening, I'm just waiting to hear what the other alternatives are. My one question that I assume that you're going to get to, too, because you said, we're gemms, and you're either a gemm, dead or in jail. And so, in your classification of gemms, is there one that is actively working on their own liberation?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 15:41
So I think the piece is saying, because of how punitive this system, so that quote I was saying is a quote a colleague gave me that I thought captured it is saying, if you think about the way that in our society, historically, this is the paradigm we've certainly been operating in is that, because of how punitive this system is to actually for folks who are explicit and talk about race and racism, and we're not mincing words around, people who are in fact engaged in their liberation, there’s a target that gets placed on your back. Part of the reason why a lot of us folks of color are maintaining our gemmification is because we don't know, is it even possible to survive in the system in a racist society, liberated. So a lot of us are in ambivalence and are maintaining our gemmification because of our fears of the consequences, that to become degemmified to become liberated, is going to actually cost us success. So I don't necessarily believe that those are the only options now, but I'm saying that the way that our society has erected it is that, it’s almost like those are the 3 options, that's almost like what we see when we are coming up and through the school system. So is that making sense at all?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 17:12
Totally. Let's also make clear, what are the consequences? I mean, and I can also jump in too, so what are the consequences of not going along with the programming? So, what happens when somebody goes against the system? Because you said that, put a target on your back, so let's talk about that. What does that look like?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 17:31
Let’s let you talk about that.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 17:34
Okay, so I mean, some of the things. So, you might not get that promotion, you might not be deemed a team player, you might be thought of if you're a black woman as sassy and loud, or a black man in stereotypical ways is angry and aggressive, or if you're another person of color, whatever stereotype goes along with that, and so you're not afforded the same social mobility. So, I mean, there's so many different consequences meaning, if I'm not afforded the same social mobility, and I don't get that promotion, I don't get that increase in my raise that might affect me right now, but over 20, 30 years, when it's time for me to retire, and I'm like a million dollars less in what is afforded me in my retirement, like huge consequences, but you might lose your job. In terms of education, you're not rewarded the same way, you might not be getting whatever awards are given within the system. Again, same things, you might not be thought to be a team player. Also, might not be thought to be smart because they're standardizing smartness on white-centric ways, the ways white people learn or knowledge that white people have as opposed to being pluralistic and inclusive of all the ways that various cultures and peoples learn. What are some of the things that you think of?
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 18:55
I feel like you've hit a lot of it. I think there's social consequences to it, there are economical consequences to it. I mean, I think this system deems you as a problem, you are pathologized and you are not provided access to opportunities that in fact allow for ones living of one's life and having the kind of livelihood you deserve. So I think that this piece that like, I think to decide to be liberated, to decide to become degemmified, it requires risk. Fundamentally, it requires risk. And one of the things that I think that the reason why it matters, here's why it matters. Do you think we need to name why it matters? One of the reason why I think it matters is, and the reason why you all will keep hearing me talk about Dr. Hardy is because he's been such an influential mentor for me in my development of my identity in becoming degemmified essentially, and I remember him on one conversation one time, I don't know if he was in conversation with me in the group of folks that he used to supervise, or if it was at a talk, part of the piece he was talking about is, when you look at health disparities in this country, and you look at the ways in which racism is affecting black and brown people, there's a piece around the structure of the system itself and how we are treated in the healthcare system. But if you look at the consequences, the physical consequences, for example, like heart disease, the ways in which our immune system is compromised, how much racism is playing a factor in that. And the piece that he was saying is that every time we swallow, every time we are not actually exhaling the impact of racialized trauma our body is suffering, it is enduring the violence that's being done. And I'll talk about this in one of the types of gemms, I did this talk when I started sharing this idea, and somebody jumped on and asked this question of like, everything you're saying here makes a whole lot of sense to me. And I'm noticing that I'm actually socializing my own children to be gems. And so, the piece is saying we’re paying a consequence anyway, our body is paying the consequence anyway. If we look at our mortality rates, let's not be deluded to think that play by the rules of the system and you're good. No, our body is keeping the score. And so, this is the piece around, why, I think this is the reason why I think it feels important, is saying that whether or not we want to tell the truth or not, our body is telling the truth about what's happening
Dr. Norissa Williams: 22:00
Absolutely, I'm thinking of some of the ways we’re excluded from these systems and the impact isolation too. So, some of the consequences isolation, you don't have a peer group or a feeling of belonging within that system. And we're hardwired to connect, and that disconnection is painful. Also being silenced. So, I mean, we'll talk about how we felt silent because we've learned that as a means of survival within the system, but you're also silenced. So, I remember one time I was emotional about something, and I wanted to speak because I was emotional. So, I just dropped it in the chat box on the Zoom meeting. And what was said about me after was that I was bringing drama, I didn't even say anything verbally, I put it in the chat box. And what I said, I said, when we talk like this, we maintain the status quo. So, I played by their games, and I spoke intellectually, very left brain, I didn't get emotional, but I was still characterized in that way. And that activated, it triggered racial trauma for me, I was like done for the day, I would have to go in the room, put a cover over my head, and really think about why it was I was feeling the way that I was feeling. I mean, before we even get to environmental racism, but there's lots of research that even speaks on the quality of sleep that black and brown people get, they don't get the same quality of sleep, black and Latinx people in particular, sleep two hours less per night than white folks. And that's no small thing. So that means you're waking up at a cognitive disadvantage the next morning, because you're not as alert, you didn't produce as much melatonin and serotonin that helps you to regulate your mood and your sleep cycle and your circadian rhythm and all those sorts of things that the white counterparts have. So there's so many different consequences. And I agree with you, and I had come to a point in my own personal life a year ago, where I had to say, I'm dying anyway, so I'm speaking up against whatever, I'm making everybody uncomfortable, I don't care. Because it's more painful to live that way and be silent than it is for me to live radically and push against the tide and what everyone else is saying or doing and push against white comfort kind of thing, too. So let's hear more about the other
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 24:24
Yeah. So before I even jump off Norissa, because I think it's important for us to say that because we are clear that what we are inviting and saying, like one of the things that we fundamentally believe, at least I do, and I think Norissa you would agree to this is that the only way we get there is really in context of our ability to be vulnerable and be honest about what the truth is around what our experiences have been. And sometimes part of it is because we are so afraid. And once you read Jones's work, around pervasiveness of fear, the intentional ways in which fear is a part of white supremacy culture, because it's a way to keep us not accessing our power, especially our collective power. And so I think it's just important for us to name like we’re clear around the sense of risk of what liberation requires, and the amount of courage. At the end of the day, it is going to require courage and it is going to require a willingness to risk on not only one's behalf, but on the behalf of the people who will come after you, the ways that when we think about our ancestors and what they did for us. And so I just want to be explicit that we recognize that what we're inviting is not for the faint of heart. Okay, so let me talk a little bit more about the other kinds of gemms that I think exist. So I already talked about the good and obedient gemm, that's the gao gem, the one that doesn't ruffle feathers, but the piece that's important is like a gao gemm is not aware that they are a gemm at all, there's no awareness about that. Similarly, in some ways is what I call the qab gem, the quietly anti-black gemm. So, this is a POC who has deeply internalized racism, and anti-blackness, and is just navigating that inside of them, they are in a struggle around that. So, this POC is implicitly preoccupied with whiteness, and anything that enables proximity to whiteness. So, then they spend lots of time actively trying not to be a POC and disallowing parts of themselves that show up racially and ethnically. So for example, somebody who for example, uses bleaching cream, that is a person whether or not they are aware of it is somebody who is engaging, preoccupied with whiteness on a level whether or not they are conscious of it. Now, one of the what I would call the most extreme versions of a gemm is a unlike the surrogate silencer and that by the way is Dr. Kenneth Hardy's word, the qab is not conscious about their invisible wounds of internalized devaluation, and how it is perpetuating internalized oppression of themselves or the POCs. So, there's a lack of awareness on their part as well, but the piece that they are aware of, they see it as a good thing is they're chasing towards whiteness. So that's our quietly anti black gemm, aka the qab gemm. By the way, in my opinion, I don't know if you agree with this Norissa, one of the ways that white supremacy has been excellent at keeping us silent, at keeping us muted is because we don't have language. And so, when you are having an experience of things that you literally cannot find a language or word to capture, make up your own word. Because when you hear somebody like Dr. Kenneth Hardy talk, it’s like, Ken what does that mean? And he'll explain, oh, okay, No, I have that word, I'll use that word. It makes sense to me. So, my point is, if you think about the ways words are created, so feel permission to talk about your own experiences, make up your own words to capture the experience you're trying to name. So I named the qab gemm. On the most extreme side, in terms of the activeness of this oppression is what Ken named as a surrogate silencer. And I don't even know that when he named it, he thought of it as a person on the gemm spectrum, because the spectrum, I've offered this to him. So, a surrogate silencer in my mind is a type of a gemm who is a person who is experienced in internalized racial oppression, white supremacy and anti-blackness so deeply that they actually identify with the white oppressor, and they operate as an extension of that white oppressor. So, this is a person depending on the severity of their internalized oppression, they may even disidentify as a person of color. So they're the folks who, I'm not going to start to name names given the fact that we’re putting this on a public forum, but the political figures that we are constantly watching on TV, who you all know who I'm talking about. Actually can I name names, Herschel Walker is an example of a surrogate silencer from my perspective. That was an example right there of not being a gao gemm. The other thing is that they deny the impact and reality of racism and colonialism. And when you hear folks of color who are actually actively trying to promote the idea that racism ended with a slavery, you know you're likely dealing with a surrogate silencer, it’s a very strong likelihood you’re dealing with a surrogate silencer. They are people who hold rigid beliefs about meritocracy, so they deny about access to power and privilege in our society is influencing their own upward mobility. So in there, there's a piece around, just work really hard, society just rewards hard work with a complete disregard for the ways society has actually structured and privileges some people over other people and gives access to some people over other people. So, the other piece too that I would say is that the surrogate silencer is usually people who hunger for power, and likely as a way of coping, and they actively use their power and privilege, whether that's based on their role, their class, or another social identity, but they actively use it to actually oppress POCs, my belief is that it's a way of actually experiencing superiority, and it's really around coping with their own deep wounds of internalized devaluation. So put it like this, if you're not sure about what I'm still meaning by the surrogate silencer, if POCs were permitted to join the kkk, surrogate silencers would be part of the kkk. Questions? Reactions? What you got?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 31:43
Nothing. I'm just listening
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 31:45
If you go and start moving towards the other end of the spectrum, you remember I said in the middle is Gao. So you got the GAO Gemm, then you have the qab Gemm, then you got the surrogate silencer. Now to the right of the GAO Gemm is what I call the part time gemm, the partial gemm, and this is a POC, who is choosing to operate as a gemm, consciously and intentionally as a survival strategy. So it's like the folks who will say explicitly that they recognize the near impossibility of being successful in a predominantly white institution without compromising aspects of themselves temporarily. So, these are people who are like, there's a consciousness about what is happening about the system that's at play, and the moves that they are making, and they make the move intentionally. But the thing is that they are prioritizing your success over your health and everything else. And so folks of us who might identify as part time gemms, are people who are excellent at code switching. And there's a piece around operating with the cultural schizophrenia without recognition, or regard, really, for the personal consequences of doing so. So it's like this piece around, a minute there, there was all these TikToks that were going around, where people where showing, like, when they go to work, here's my work face, and here's my work voice. Really, those are people who are illustrating, I'm a part time gemm. So there was also this video, Sterling Brown did this video after the murder of George Floyd, and it was a perfect illustration of what it looks like to be a part time gemm. And even in that video, he was like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. But the piece that's important about part time gemms is like, it is a strategic move that they are using as a way of being able to maintain access to success. Okay.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 33:56
I think of people like that who have named their children things that, oh I don't want their names to sound too ethnic, so they'll name their children Eurocentric sounding names, or ‘neutral sounding’ names for that.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 34:11
That's right. So part time gemms will talk about their value of their experience and their culture as folks of color. But this piece it's like two sides of you. And really the part that gets shown is based on the context of who you're with. And again, the part I want to be clear around you all is, there's not an ounce of judgement in me towards any of us. Because, again, when we are functioning in a society in a racist society, these subtypes that we've become have been our best adaptations to what we're operating with. So part of what I'm saying is around all of us in community, really being able to start to take on these lens of recognizing the different kinds of gemms, and all of us need some kind of compassion, in order for us to get liberated, we're going to need similar kind of support, all of that. But it's just language to what we're witnessing and what we're seeing, it allows us to start to look at our own selves, look at our people and be inviting people into conversation, so we can be making the choice about whether or not we want to become degemmified. Alright, so the last one I have, is what I call a Docs gemm, which essentially is a docile gem. And really the reason I call it docs, I hated the word docile, but it feels like the piece that I had to come up with a word. So if somebody has a better language, or better terms, please, I'm open to suggestions. But a Docs gemm is pretty much somebody who started out as a POC that was initially a part time gemm that ultimately collapses into docile. And so this is somebody who is living with a wound of the sort of sense of self hopelessness, voicelessness, and they are ultimately exhausted by the cultural schizophrenia having to switch all the time and they ultimately collapse into a shell of themselves. And they don't even bother anymore, they’re just done. It's like people like you are with them, but they don't really feel like they're there anymore. Because they're just so exhausted of having to go back and forth between these two different sides. And so they've compromised themselves so much that they are now in essence, a zombie, what I would call a less numb version of themselves. Okay. And so that's what I call my docs gemm. And like I said, I'm sure there are different kinds of subtypes, and people probably transition the type of gemm you are based on the kind of context and all of that, but I think this point is saying that it’s trying to start to give name to the kinds of gemms that exist. And by the way, the other piece I should tell you about, Norissa is, I actually created a quiz to help you be able to rank how degemmified or how gemmified you are. So, you take this quiz, and it gives you a score. And it's very elementary level, but it'll be interesting if at some point, if I ever want to share the link with people to be able to get that and hop on that and see how you rank in terms of your gemmification status. But again, our whole conversation here is really about degemmification, the whole reason why we're in this conversation is actually about degemmification. And the fundamental belief that I certainly have and Norissa has, is that we don't have to operate by, we don't have to do this. We don't have to operate by these rules. And really, how powerful would it actually be if we will all collectively decide, how will we be actually dismantling white supremacy. Collectively, if we're saying we're no longer going to play by these rules anymore. So degemmification is a process, it's an intentional process that I believe that we go into to start to reclaim ourselves and to become liberated. And so, I want to turn it over to Norissa to start our layout and start to talk a little bit about specifically what liberation is.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 38:25
Thank you. Thank you for all that you've shared so far. So, what is liberation? Liberation, it's a process as well as it's an outcome. So when we speak about liberation, we have an idea of what liberation looks like, it looks like somebody who is free to be themselves, reclaim parts of themselves using language you have already used today. But liberation is also a process that takes time. And it's not, as we can tell, in the first episode, where both Bukky, and I shared what our process is, it's not linear, it is sometimes circular. Sometimes you have to revisit old lessons and different things like that. But really, it is about coming into right relationship with our power, right? And so when we're living in oppressive systems, that tells us that we have to be this way or else there are consequences, what we do is yield some of our power to the system so that we can be able to survive. Again, building on what you said earlier, no judgement has been a means of survival, because a lot of times that these consequences, they have been immediate death, and they have been long term death, death by 1000 cuts, death by the excretion of cortisol and other stress hormones in our system that leads to hypertension, all these kinds of things later on development of diabetes and all those kinds of things. So, it has been so necessary, what liberation says is no longer, no longer, I'm going to be aligned back with my true essence and my true essence is power. My God self, the truth of who I am, I'm not giving away, that essence of who I am, I'm not giving away anymore. I also like to think about the other side of that. So, I could be yielding to the power that is impressed upon me, but I could also be abusing the power that I do have. So, I'm not talking about abusing that power, I'm talking about being aligned and in right relationship, in a restorative place with our own power. And so, what that looks like, is not being complicit with our oppression anymore. So I'm not self-silencing anymore, I'm not allowing things to go on that are harmful to me or the people around me, that are oppressive dynamics, that promote the same racial hierarchy, I'm going to disrupt and dismantle when I see things that are going on, or else I'll leave and exit the system, that if I see this happening, and I won't be a part of it anymore. So, liberation really is just this process of a realignment. And that's really just how I think about it. And it's different for everyone. And what it involves is intentionality, you and I have had these discussions, it involves intentionality, you don't liberate accidentally. So yes, you could be on a path, but it's until you are intentional and you seek out information groups, and you actively unlearn all the things that you've been falsely taught that you're really truly beginning to liberate and to decolonize. And again, I'm emphasizing that that has to be intersectional as well. So my experience is not only influenced by my blackness, it's also influenced by my gender, and really thinking about the ways in which I've been taught to behave because of those things. And so I mean, that really challenges us to be introspective about all things, including the ways that we were raised. So a lot of times, if you look at how we are raised, you mentioned how someone in your audience said, well, I'm raising my children to be gemms. And so what we tend to do unless we are enlightened, unless we have had awakening of our consciousness, what we tend to do is raise our children for the environment that we knew, because we're thinking that they're going to be in that same environment. So, what you even see across races, that people who are lower class, raise their children to be conformative, to conform to their environment, to be able to navigate. So if I'm a factory worker conformity, and following the rules, and all those sorts of things are necessary for my own survival, most of the things that I teach my children, shut up when I'm talking, don't answer me back, I don't want to hear your input. All those kinds of things are reinforcing those concepts. And that is what they exit and go into the world with, if we're not challenging them to think critically, and different things like that. So does it happen that you might be from a lower class environment, but raise them with principles that challenge critical thinking? And yes, it does definitely happen, but not without an awareness first. So, I can think definitely even about the ways in which my gender has influenced the ways that I've been raised, that I was not raised to be educated, I was raised to be a wife. So, it makes sense that I was married the first time, by the time I was 23, 24, that everything was about what man will want you if, my value being that, but also my race had something to do with it too, because like don't be like this, and don't be like that, because you don't want people to think, as opposed to just be who you are, and just be comfortable being who you are, and let the environment adapt to you. I understand that pressure as a parent, I understand that pressure because the rest of the world is not aligned with my thinking about liberation. And so if I don't teach them, so if for example, my 16 year old son, I want him to be in touch with his emotions. And so I realized that I'm not his only socializing influence, he has the world and his peer group. So it's been hard to, I saw a marked difference through entering junior high and on the other side of soon to graduate high school of who he is and how he's able to express his emotions as a black boy. And so I'm saying this to say, I've wanted him to be able to say, I feel sad, or I feel whatever, but because of societal media, his peer group, he's not able to say that. So, we were away last week, and my husband sent him a text and was like, I miss you, I can't wait to see you. And he said, I bet you do. What do you mean I bet you do? I miss you too, that's an appropriate reciprocal kind of response. But he's grown up in a system where as a black boy, it is not okay for him to speak in emotional terms. And then at the same time, do I want to raise him in such a way? And do I. There are consequences if I raise him being attuned to his emotion and everybody outside of like, Oh, he's weak or whatever terms we used to call men who are too emotional or different things like that. So really, if I am to step back and try to summarize, all that I'm saying is it's resisting the social pressures of conformity to behave according to systems of domination. And that is white supremacy, male supremacy, hetero supremacy, all those kinds of things. I don't know if I made that succinct. I felt like I made that longer than I've ever made it in life. But that, to me is what the variation is.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 46:00
I wish it was one of those live conversations, so that when I ask a question that no audience here is able to respond to, it was like, nobody's confused by what you're saying. You are freaking clear. So thank you for that. And one of the things that you were saying, Norissa, this piece around being in alignment with one’s self and in one's power, it's like, the piece is there's a value, there's a valuation of one’s self, there's a piece around that, I wonder if you could speak to around like, in order for one to be aligned with one’s self with one’s power inherently speaks to an underlying value for self. How do you think of that?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 46:47
Yeah, I think that that's a necessary component. So to be aligned with your power, you have to know that you have power that you are powerful. And so I see it as a necessary component. I'm going in a little bit direction, but I'm thinking about what that looked like for me. So in the last episode, I talked about my liberation journey, and there has been like a 20 year kind of journey that has been qualitatively different depending on even where I am in my own chronological age development. But I keep thinking as we're having this conversation, and as I listened to you on Gemmification, about who I was two years ago, in the aftermath, because that was a very pivotal experience for a lot of us. And so I remember, literally two years ago, this time, it was June, the chair of my department, so I was full time faculty at the time, was a black woman, and she had scheduled a meeting for all of us to be able to talk about these things, and said, we're talking about what we're going to do about race for the students, what about us? Are there race issues that we need to talk about us? There wasn't very many black people in the audience, and I'm somebody by nature I’m reserved. So it is always shocking for people to hear that you're a professor and you're reserved. I'm shy, I've always been shy. And now it's more that I'm slow to warm up than it is that I'm shy, but I am still really shy. And so I feel silenced in those settings, power has done that, because I'm mostly in rooms with white people. And it's mostly the white men who power influences the comfort level with which you have speaking up and different things like that. But no one said anything. And this was not going to be a moment I was going to let it pass. And I started speaking, and that really was the beginning of my most radical part of my liberation process. And what I said was, I left HBCU, or at least a predominantly black institution, and I came here, because they're celebrities where I was, they're celebrities in the field, and I thought, if I could just touch the hem of their garment, I can learn so much, I can be a better psychologist, researcher, scholar, and different things like that. And I said, But I'm in the elevator with you all, and I've had to introduce myself to some of you like 5 times. Oh, I didn't recognize you, you're here so different. Or it wasn't even about that, it's just like, I said, hi in the elevator, and people haven't even responded that. And I told them, I said, basically these circumstances have made me even question my own self and my own value. And I said, whether or not I want to stay here fast forward two years later, I left, I was gone a year ago. But point of the story is that act, no longer self-silencing and no longer going with the current has radically changed me, and has radically caused me to question any circumstance in which I'm being complicit with my own oppression. There's many stories that I could share throughout the time that we'll be together that I've shared with you Bukky, times where I'll disrupt, somebody's trying to do something and say something that is, you're only saying this because you think I'm less than because I'm a black woman, or because I'm a black person, let me stop you right now, because this is what's not going to happen. And I don't care if you choose not to pay me. And that's what I'm referring to, when I think about process, that every day you have the opportunity to enact your liberation, or if I use your language, to degemmify, because it is a process, we've so learned and so ingrained the doctrination, the larger social doctrination. And then some of the things we haven't visited, we haven't visited in our thoughts. So for example, I was watching a documentary yesterday, and even though I, for a long time have not identified as a Christian, they were talking about and this conversation has come up for me a lot within the last 2 or 3 months, they were talking about the Yoruba tradition and other African spiritual systems and talking about animal sacrifice. I haven't thought about those things. I hadn't had the opportunity to decolonize my mind and liberate my thinking about those things. Because the first thing that comes up, it’s so barbaric, that wasn't a conscious thought, but that was a visceral reaction in my body, I'm never doing that, if that's what it takes for me to get there, not happening. But like I said, there's so much for us to unlearn. And so that starts from the ways in which we've been socialized by our families of origin, all the way through our education, and our professional organizations, and how they enforce these behavioral, emotional mandates for us to be able to fit in a system that was never made for us.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 51:51
Thank you so much for that. I feel like you said a couple of things. I wanted to be like, Wait, can you say that again? And say it slowly so that people can write it down. Actually, one of them is this, Norissa, I feel like you have a very precise way of defining liberation. And you are clear, the piece is about an alignment with one's own power. Is that right? The piece that it's about is not like, just like when I talk about the degemmification, I'm not talking explicitly about power, I'm talking about being able to get into authenticity with one's own self, but you are actually putting it and locking it in power. Can you tell us a little bit more about, how come power is the thing that it feels important for you to locate liberation in?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 52:37
That's a good question. I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way. So one of the things, because when we're talking about hierarchies, racial hierarchies, we're talking about power, and we're talking about power being assumed at the top and being taken away from those at the lower end of the hierarchy. And so our power has been taken away from us, and that influences the degree to which we're able to be free. And so another caveat here is that there are alternative ways of being, meaning we don't have to be in systems that are hierarchical, we can be in systems where there is shared power. So power with as opposed to power over. Systems where there are power over, these hierarchical systems, racial hierarchies are systems that are abusive, and take away one's agency. And so I locate this conversation in power, because I'm speaking about power, I'm speaking about true alignment with ourselves, our souls, our being, what we came here to do from a spiritual perspective. And I think these social things are impediments or things that prevent us or slow us down from really self-actualizing, and being our best and most powerful self. So all of this is about power, so I can't see it any other way than through the lens of power. And how I came to this definition, I was preparing a talk really, and it was like a download. And like something you knew without knowing you knew, and it just came so clearly at the time, and I had been thinking, I heard Fanya Davis speak about restorative justice. And so Fanya David said that restorative justice is about people coming into right relationship with those that they've harmed. And so in thinking about oppression, and thinking about oppression being harm, and justice being the answer, then restoration and justice internalized has to be about being in right relationship with ourselves and with our own power. And that's where that comes from for me.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 54:57
Thank you. I feel like this is an episode I want to go back and watch over and over and over again, just to be able to capture some of the things that you just highlighted right there. And I'm just grateful for the different, this is not like a live conversation actually, that people can actually be like, wait. And this is what I was saying to you all when I introduced and I was saying how my experience of how Norissa talks and the way her mind works is like, she's teaching without even necessarily thinking she's teaching. Just this the way that you give information, the way you package it, the way you write, it's like this piece of wait, what? And I want to go back because it's layered. I'm going to get one part of it now, and I'm going to listen to that and get another part of it later again. Your spirit is so powerful, that it gives information multilayered, and my mind can hear one part of it now, and when I listen later, I can hear the other additional important parts as well. So anyway, just really appreciate the ways that you've summarized that for us. And I think honestly, that's part of what's been exciting to me about our conversation. Because when I'm thinking about degemmification, I'm thinking about getting into authenticity with one’s self, but this fact that you then located and said, no, it's about power, and it's about our ability to utilize our power to be dismantling power structures that don't serve us, and the ways that we're using against our own selves internally. This is a way that we operationalize the value of authenticity of one’s self.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 56:41
Thank you. Yeah, I mean I was feeling like that when you were talking about gemmification, too. This is definitely a rich, rich, rich, rich conversation.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 56:50
As you've thought about liberation, Norissa, at this point, do you feel like you've codified it enough to be like, here are the phases. Part of what our hope is, also talking a little bit about what we believe about the process of what it looks like to actually like in concrete ways so that our audience members actually hear practical strategies. And our hope is to be able to bring different guests on that are really telling you their own stories and all of that. One of the questions that is coming up for me as I'm just listening to you today is, in terms of phases or stages, have you thought about that? And tell us what you've already come to around that
Dr. Norissa Williams: 57:37
I actually have it written down, but I forgot. I think of 3 phases, but there are sub parts to each of the phases. And I'm not sure if I'm going to remember this as I wrote it. But I definitely think that there has to be similar to the nigrescence model by Bill Cross of black identity development, there has to be some sort of encounter experience, where you have this increased awareness and it's like, whoa, I'm seeing things like I've never seen it before. And then this discomfort with where you are, a disequilibrium between where you are, and where you want to be in terms of your knowledge and actualization of liberation and or degemmification. And then there's an intentional working towards, and then that intentional working towards involves an individual component, as well as a collective component. So individually, I have to be actively seeking information to challenge and to undo and unlearn all the things that I've been learning, and collectively I also have to get in community with people who are doing that learning and who support that, so that when we have that support, we can replicate it. Meaning, replicate it in our own lives, practice it, be more liberated in different things like that, strengthen our experience, lived experience and practice of it. But also people who are further on the path to pour into us, and then those who were pouring into too. But I know that it involves community, I'm pretty sure that I'm missing some things from what I wrote down, but I think of it in those kinds of ways. And I don't think of it that as something that has a final end, I think of it as something that is ongoing, and that continually involves acquisition of knowledge of yourself, like if we're talking about black liberation or a personal color or what have you, it involves also coming back home to yourself. So what are my ethnic cultural values? Different things, I've been thinking a lot recently, and it's something I wasn't conscious of until the last couple of months or a year, my great grandmothers on my father's side, both his grandmothers paternal and maternal, were very instrumental. So, African traditional religion was banned in Trinidad, they were instrumental in terms of their own spirituality and being leaders in bringing it back into Trinidad and practicing it in a very revolutionary way, and about how that lives in me. And I have to come back to that knowledge, and with that knowledge, I find myself being drawn to West African, I mean, granted, I definitely have Nigerian and Ghanaian roots, mostly Nigerian, so it makes sense that I'm gravitating to, West African traditions as well. But coming back home to self, and when I say self, I also mean ancestry, not just this individual, because our sense of self and identity, it's not the same as the Western sense of self and identity, which is the singular, but I'm speaking about the collective.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 1:00:51
Thank you for that. I don't know that people will know this is that, other Norissa and I knowing that we were like those body of work that we’re involved in, where there's lots of overlap and similarity. And we were like, just our spirit and our vibe, we're like, let's just do this thing. It's interesting, the reason I asked that question is because, in my thinking, I had laid out that there are 4 phases to degemmification. One is awakening. Second is preparation. Third is taking steps. And fourth, I call maintenance, and it requires tools. And how you just essentially broke it down is essentially similar to exactly what I. So it’s just interesting this piece around thinking about ancestral wisdom, and I'm sure there are other folks who are listening to this, or other scholars that probably even exist, that we're not even necessarily tapped into yet. So, it's just interesting because you know that saying, there's nothing new under the sun. The point I'm saying is, this information, if you think about it from a spiritual level it's going to be bursts. And a question of which one of the messengers, or which messengers decide to collaborate together to bring it forward
Dr. Norissa Williams: 1:02:15
Remembering.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 1:02:18
Exactly. Remembering, it’s happening right here. So it's just cool to be able to hear you lay that out and be like, Oh, my God, that's exactly what I got written down here. So, I geek out a little bit when moments like that happen where we're like, it's happening live in the real, what else we got for today?
Dr. Norissa Williams: 1:02:35
I think that's it. I think that's it. We have a lot to chew on to digest as well as I think the rest of you do. So we're going to wrap it up for today. Thank you all for listening. And we look forward to the next time.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 1:02:51
Take care y'all.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 1:02:54
Thanks for listening.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 1:02:55
If you love what we've had to say, please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Dr. Norissa Williams: 1:03:00
I’m Dr. Norissa, and you can find me on IG at Dr. Norissa Williams.
Dr. Bukky Kolawale: 1:03:04
And I'm Dr. Bukky, you can find me on IG at the official Dr. Bukky.
Dr. Norissa Williams: 1:03:08
You can also stay abreast of our latest offerings on our website radicalremembering.com
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